E.P.I.C. Podcast "Every Play Is Crucial"
Life is full of moments you cannot predict or control only experience and enjoy right? Come join Vernon, Isaac, Justin, and Jared every Wednesday where we lend our opinions about current event going on in sports. Every episode is promising to be entertaining, not necessarily informational.
E.P.I.C. Podcast "Every Play Is Crucial"
Ranking Shakeups, Tiebreakers, And Who Gets In
We chart the playoff chaos in college football and then map how a handful of NFL Week 14 games can flip the entire bracket. We close with a heated NBA debate on Westbrook vs Iverson and the true weight of a Finals MVP compared with a regular-season MVP.
• Alabama-Georgia ripple effects on two-loss rankings
• BYU vs Texas Tech rematch and the 13th game debate
• ACC auto-bid collision with Duke and Virginia, Miami squeezed
• SMU’s six-second heartbreak and tiebreaker logic
• Updated NFL seeds and the divisions on the brink
• Week 14 separation games that can swing wild cards
• Strength of schedule and travel wear on contenders
• Westbrook vs Iverson, résumé vs style
• Finals MVP versus regular-season MVP, what counts more
Yo, welcome to another episode of the Epic Podcast. Me and Jared in the house tonight, man.
SPEAKER_01:How has your sports weekend been? Week.
SPEAKER_03:I've been waiting on you to ask me this question. It's been awesome. Bing was put out to ass against the Ravens. I don't know how, but they did. House State finally back on top. Everything's right in the college football world again. Was they not on top before? I mean, shit. Not if you asked them other fans. Now they the other fans. I mean, I don't really know how to really, you know, I don't really have no disdain for Michigan, but I mean, you know, ask them guys. We wasn't, you know, we was down. So even after winning the national championship, you know, so hey, all order has been restored in that realm. I'm good. How about for you, bro?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, pretty good, man. Um, even though Alabama kind of struggled against Auburn. Um rivalry game, though, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pacers are the Pacers. Uh coats lose again.
SPEAKER_03:That's three out of that's three out of four. That shit, that shit went quick.
SPEAKER_01:I was trying not to be that guy in the beginning. And I just said I kept all I said is I'm not gonna give my hopes up because I know you played right. Granted, it's not over. It's not oh no, no, not by a long screen. I'll give you that. I cannot. I have a I went to NFL, I mean, yeah, ESPN.com, and they have this playoff machine where you can pick the weeks and the teams that win.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, there's a way the coats don't make the playoffs. Wow. There is a way. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They um while they seem while it seems like everything is okay right now, yeah. They they need to turn it around quick.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because I forgot the Bills is uh 8-4-2, and that and so now they're you know, they gotta worry about the wild card now. So they tie with the Bills.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, it's the Chiefs. I still feel like the Chiefs is gonna turn at some point. If they win out, they had a what, 11 and 6? Yeah, because who's winning that division? Uh the Broncos. The Broncos right now.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so yeah, it could get dicey. So the only way we have a chance in is if we win a division. This is this game over for a wild card. So, and believe it or not, that's still open.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:We're we're we're uh two games out, but we're three and one in division so far. I I don't know how, don't ask me how, but the Bengals are currently sitting three and one in division. So you figure if we can finish that out five and one, even four and two might, even four and two might do it. Like granted, we split with uh with the uh Pittsburgh Steelers, but then that conference record is the tiebreaker for the split. So which I'll have. Yeah, so I I hey, I mean, I'll take it. Who knows? Who knows, man? We'll see.
SPEAKER_01:But we got we definitely playing inspired football right now. Oh, for sure. I don't know how. Don't ask me how, but yes.
SPEAKER_03:Hey. I clearly don't have all the answers, so clearly don't.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, me neither, me neither. But uh, we're gonna jump jump into the college football scene real quick. Um just released the new rankings, so let's let's let's talk about it. Um put them up on the screen for y'all. So right now you got, and this is the playoff rankings, so you got Ohio State at one still, Indiana at two, um, Georgia at three, Texas Tech at four, Oregon at five, Ole Miss at six, Texas AM at seven, Oklahoma at eight, Alabama at nine, uh, Notre Dame at 10, BYU at 11, and Miami at 12 right now.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:So that's just the playoff ranking right there.
SPEAKER_01:And then you got Texas at 13, uh Vanderbilt at 14, Utah at 15, USC at 16, Virginia at 17, Arizona at 18, Michigan at 19, uh, Tulane at 20, Houston at 21, Georgia Tech at 22, Iowa at 23, Northern Texas at 24, and uh James Madison at 25.
SPEAKER_03:So just like we talked about this weekend, man, this could get really, really, really, really tricky.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, still, even still, I mean, you look at you look at these um these conference championship games coming up, you you get Georgia, Alabama. So that's one more loss for one of them. So, I mean, if Alabama wins, like where do you where do you put Georgia? Even though they only got two losses, you know what I mean? You drop them down to the other two loss teams, which is Oklahoma, it'd still be Alabama and Notre Dame and Miami that's in.
SPEAKER_01:Uh like you gotta you gotta, I mean, you will have to move Alabama above Oklahoma, which at that point will move Alabama in the seventh.
SPEAKER_04:You can't put Oklahoma over Georgia because they already lost to Georgia. So you probably would go Alabama 7, Georgia 8, Oklahoma 9.
SPEAKER_03:Uh this is ooh, this is this is a this is a lot.
SPEAKER_01:I I got a few things, that's a few different things. It didn't, I mean, then you got no dame. I mean, I I think you just gotta keep them as the lowest two loss team just because they don't have a conference championship. What about what you got?
SPEAKER_03:So you got you got um Vanderbilt at 10 and 2, you got Miami at 10 and 2, but you currently got Miami in and got Vanderbilt out. Vanderbilt has five ranked wins. I don't think Notre Dame has any. That's that's one. And then you got Oklahoma above Alabama, but Alabama is playing for the SEC Championship.
SPEAKER_01:So if Alabama loses, but I think that's I but I think that's the Oklahoma, I think only because Oklahoma has that loss to Texas when Texas was unranked. Why does that make them better than well Alabama has no? Exactly. But my thing is this, so because Alabama And they have another and and they have another loss. Well they have their other losses to Old Miss. They was ranked to eight at that time, but I'm just saying. My thing is this though.
SPEAKER_03:If so, if Alabama loses in the SEC Championship, does that eliminate Alabama from the SEC playoff when they've played an extra game?
SPEAKER_01:That doesn't seem fair. Yeah, but I think if not, that puts them down to 12. I think they will be the last team in. Because even after even out of 10 and 3, I think they're better than any of the other teams below them. And it's almost like, why even I mean, if you're I mean, the the conversation will probably be Texas and Alabama. Who do you let in? It's that's so crazy.
SPEAKER_03:Because then you look at Miami, like them being ranked at 12 is just like basically a slap in the chest.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they're basically out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I mean Because whoever wins the ACC championship is gonna take that spot. It's gonna take that spot. Yeah. They're basically out.
SPEAKER_04:So that's that's gonna come down to uh Duke, Duke, and uh Virginia, which that's that in itself is crazy.
SPEAKER_01:And then BYU plays Texas Tech, right? Yes. What happens to the loser of them with two losses? Again. But see, I don't let's say keep them over a uh a Notre Dame. Do you No? No, no, no, no, no. Especially BY, not BYU. Cause BYU already has a loss to Texas Tech. Okay, that's their only loss is to Texas Tech. So they lose. And that was and it was a bad loss. They lost 29 of 7 of them. So you lose twice to a top five team? Right, but how you know how they are, they like style points. How did you lose? Now, if they get blown out twice by Texas Tech, I think as the two loss, they they I don't know if you keep them. I don't even know if you keep BYU in over a three-loss Alabama. My thing is this though. This is another thing that the same thing that I mentioned for SEC is the same thing for them. So BYU playing a 13th game, how I feel like that can't negatively affect a team. I don't see how it's fair that But I think it's only in those conferences where with those teams um where they don't have a lot a much representation.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like it's I know I don't feel like Alabama losing, creating a third loss should knock them above, I mean below teams that have two losses, but didn't have that opportunity to play that third team game. Because if that's the case, I don't want to play it. Yeah. If I'm Alabama, I'm like, well shit. If you got me in the you got me in currently in the playoff, I don't want to go. Like what I don't have anything to gain but everything to lose.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Unless they like have have have came to a general consensus that, hey, this is locked in, regardless, you know, we just don't tweak it for the conference champions like. Basically, you can move up, but you can't move down type shit. But if you could, if if a loss, if a loss for Alabama bumps them out of the playoffs, that's not right. Something has to be redone, especially if you got um, if you're gonna slide Texas. And it's like I would say that there's no way Texas can move up, but they're third teams. Somebody's gonna lose this weekend.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, and I think the only ones that are pretty much locked in is obviously the Ohio State Indiana game.
SPEAKER_01:Oregon. Oregon's locked in too. They probably they Well, I was meaning teams that play, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right, right, right, right. But like I feel like with Alabama, Alabama could could jump. Alabama could I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I'm saying. Like, even if Texas, let's say Texas Tech.
SPEAKER_03:You still there?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so you got all these, um, you're not gonna move BYU up no matter what. So even if Texas Tech lose and they get that second, because right now they're 11 and one BYU is. If you're gonna put Smash Texas Tech, you don't move them up at all? I don't, I just I don't think so. Because if you were gonna give BYU credit for their 11-1 record, you would have put them above those three 10 and 2 teams. Does that make sense? It does, but because a lot of this is me playing devil's advocate. A lot, I would say 99% of this we probably agree on. But I think even if Texas Tex lose, that's their second loss. I think you just drop them down with the other 10-2 teams. But that I don't think that boosts BYU up because of the loss they already had to Texas Tech earlier in the year that was so bad. I dare I damn think it would have to, though.
SPEAKER_03:You can't have a you can't have the 11th ranked you can't have the 11th ranked team beat number four, especially if it's a sizable margin of victory and not move them up at all.
SPEAKER_01:Especially above I mean, maybe maybe maybe above Notre Dame, like what whoever's in that 10 spot.
SPEAKER_04:They would have to jump Notre Dame, and I would say But if Alabama beats, but if but if Alabama beats Georgia, let's say that you know Georgia drops down to you know the other 11-2 teams, uh Oklahoma's they'll they'll be 10-2, whatever, whatever.
SPEAKER_01:You will essentially put Alabama over, they'll be that first uh two-loss team.
SPEAKER_03:That's what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_01:If Alabama beats Georgia, they're gonna be they'll be the first 10 they'll be the first two-loss team after the one losses. And then you will put you'll have to put Georgia because they already beat Oklahoma, so you can't put Oklahoma above them. And plus, you have to give them, like you said, the benefit of the doubt for playing an extra game. So it will go Alabama, Oklahoma. Uh, then, like you said, if if Texas Tech is in there, you can put Texas Tech in there, probably even above Alabama, um, even if if they lose to BYU. And then I would BYU, I would just put them above uh, or even if you put Texas Tech below BYU and put Notre Dame at 10, uh Texas Tech at 9, and then BYU, and then Oklahoma, Georgia, Alabama. You see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and bring it up that way.
SPEAKER_01:I would be fine with that also.
SPEAKER_03:No, Notre Dame is gonna root hard for uh Texas Tech, though, for sure. Because I think if BYU wins that game, I think that steals a spot. I think if BYU loses, they may slide out. But I feel like obvious, obviously Texas Tech is in no matter what. I feel like. Yes, yes, yes. Win or lose, Texas Tech is in. I think BYU has to win to get in.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like I feel like if they lose But then who do you put in? I mean, I mean, who do you throw in there then? I mean, do you throw a three-loss Texas in there?
SPEAKER_03:I think Texas is cooked.
SPEAKER_01:I don't think. I mean, because if you look at I mean, their wins, the most impressive win they got is Texas AM. Well, I mean, Oklahoma. Well, they got Oklahoma, they got tech, they beat Texas Tech, Oklahoma, and Vanderbilt. Texas beat Texas Tech? Yes. I mean, not Texas Tech, Texas AM, my bad. They beat Texas AM. I know they beat Texas AM. Yeah, my bad, my bad. They beat Texas AM, Vanderbilt, and Oklahoma. I was getting ready to say that. Those are three top ten wins. Yeah, man. But you got two, your two losses, or your were your two, two of your law, two out of your three losses were the top five teams, and then you got one. That Florida, that Florida loss is probably Yeah, that's what derailed their season, really. That that's probably what's gonna keep them, keep them out, if I had to say so. I was like, that loss to Florida. I couldn't let Texas in with that. I would rather, like you said, you uh you brought up Vanderbilt.
SPEAKER_05:Well, shoot, you gotta think. Virginia's gonna get, I mean, if Virginia wins, so that bumps Miami out.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So chances are Miami's out regarding. There is no way. Yeah, you can't put them in, especially if Virginia wins.
SPEAKER_04:Whoever wins the ACC championship is gonna take that 12th spot.
SPEAKER_03:He's gonna steal a spot for sure.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, and then the fact that there's even a possibility the Duke may get in.
SPEAKER_01:To get smashed.
SPEAKER_03:They're not even ranked at all.
SPEAKER_01:No, bro, they're seven and five. This is monsters. See, I said him, I said him last year. What? Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Before you say that, you got JMU versus Troy. It's another conference championship game. Nah, those those don't those don't matter.
SPEAKER_02:It's only I keep forgetting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's only the four. I forgot they changed it. I forgot they trained it. They're not allowed. Only the four. But yeah, no, I mean, but shoot, they're 11-1. Who? James Madison. They're good, bro. North Texas is 11-1, too. Yeah, I'm just like, I it's it's it's it's it's crazy. I don't know who you put in.
SPEAKER_04:Like, I'm looking the only two two loss teams you could possibly put in is either Vanderbilt or Utah over Miami and Texas. Like, that's the only two that really got a chance to sneak in then. This is crazy. Because, I mean, you're not letting a three lost USC in, you're not letting a three off loss Arizona or three lost Michigan in. A three loss, if you're gonna do that, anybody deserve to be in. It's probably Texas Tech. They're probably the toughest out of all those. Georgia Tech, my fault. You're Georgia Tech at three losses. Like, but if you're gonna do that, you might as well throw in a James Madison. That ain't gonna be. At least they got the record to back it up.
SPEAKER_03:They don't have the competition though.
SPEAKER_04:No, but shit. I mean, like I said, a lot of these teams that's that has these three losses, I don't think any three loss team is gonna get in. And like I said, out of the two loss teams, you're probably Vanderbilt has your best uh has the best resume.
SPEAKER_03:It's crazy that it's crazy that there's gonna be some two loss teams that don't make it in, but there's gonna be a five-loss team that makes it. Well, pinning if possibly. Yeah. Ooh. That, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then last year, then we're gonna be looking at this year kind of like we looked at last year. And you remember it it's so crazy that it used to be a four-team playoff.
SPEAKER_03:I don't even know how that. I mean, look at all these one-loss teams. So you mean to tell me that there would be one, two, three, four major top conference 11-and-one teams that wouldn't make the playoffs. And that's assuming well, actually, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That would be crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Because obviously, and then they're talking about expanding it to 16.
SPEAKER_03:One of them are gonna have one loss. So you'd have one undefeated team, in theory, three 11-and-one teams, and everybody else is zipped up.
SPEAKER_04:It's done. Yeah, so yeah, I don't know, man. Um I'm not mad at how the rankers are now, but like you said, after this weekend, like, you know, just cause like I I just believe Georgia, Alabama's gonna beat Georgia. I just not just biased, but we're the only team that beats them for some reason.
SPEAKER_03:I I would pick that.
SPEAKER_01:I and then like I said, BYU.
SPEAKER_04:If they do beat Texas Tech, like I said, they they'll they'll probably just stay at 11. I just don't think they jump. I think Texas, I think Texas Tech may drop down, but like six.
SPEAKER_03:But Texas Tech has beaten BYU in Utah. That's it. They lost to Arizona State, terrible loss. Yeah. Uh they beat some smaller guys.
SPEAKER_05:They really have no real impressive wins outside of okay, but then you look at BYU, BYU have no impressive wins unless you're gonna give them Utah.
SPEAKER_03:Because I ain't giving Texas Tech Utah.
SPEAKER_01:So Okay, cool. So like they have nothing.
SPEAKER_03:The sense is that if they lose, they're cooked.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like I mean, I'm not yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's get them out of here then.
SPEAKER_01:I guess that's two uh yeah, a two-loss by you might just be out. That may that may pave a way for Miami to stay in. So Miami might be hoping that uh BYU lost.
SPEAKER_03:But but then loses. They have them ranked.
SPEAKER_01:They'll be the top two. Yeah, they'll be the top two loss team. You can't bump them down. Uh top top two loss team. That would get tricky too, because then you got but Alabama. You got right, but I think I think well, like I said, I mean, because right now you got Georgia ranked above Texas Tech. So if Alabama beats Georgia, which gives them two losses also, which we just agreed on.
SPEAKER_04:So if Texas Tech and Georgia both lose, I'm still rocking. They they fall down into the two loss teams.
SPEAKER_01:Out of those two loss teams.
SPEAKER_03:Georgia's loss is gonna be better. So I think if Georgia was a good one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so okay, I see what you're saying. So probably go Alabama, uh, Georgia, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, or Texas Tech, Oklahoma.
SPEAKER_03:Man, I don't know how they see Oklahoma. I mean, they've been kind of like struggling. Like that quarterback didn't finish so hot.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, he didn't hurt, but I mean winning five and I mean four in a row after that old miss loss.
SPEAKER_03:17 to 13 over Broken.
SPEAKER_01:17 to 6 over Missouri. They're not anything.
SPEAKER_03:They beat barely beat Alabama, and they went to Tennessee and Alabama consecutive weeks and won. And won. That's respect.
SPEAKER_04:I think you gotta respect that. I think you put them, you might put let's look at Georgia real quick.
SPEAKER_01:You might put them over Georgia. Look at that. Look at that. They barely they barely squeak out a win at Tennessee. Oh, they oh miss is probably the most impressive win. You know, Texas when they were 10, but shoot, Texas ain't even in no more. Like, is that really that impressive? And then you struggled against Georgia Tech.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know, dog.
SPEAKER_01:You might put Oklahoma over Georgia, you might go Alabama, Oklahoma, Georgia, Texas Tech, as those two losses and then overday.
SPEAKER_03:And what's crazy is because how they because you would even because I think we're saying we're like, oh, okay, well, certain they're in, they're in, they're in. But we I I'm forgetting that that that top four means something. It's not just a okay, you're fourth, I'm fifth, whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Nah. Yeah, because then you then you're gonna boost up. You because I'm orcing that old missile just hoping for chaos. Because them two will move up into their third or then fourth spot.
SPEAKER_03:But I just don't, I just don't know how you penalize Georgia for losing. Like an extra game.
SPEAKER_01:Like, how how do you get rid of conference championship games? Like, get rid of them. I mean, it's not a good thing. I mean, it takes them out the top, it it takes them out the top four.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, them and Texas Tech, if they both lose. It takes them out the top four. But it doesn't, I mean, I mean, penalizes them, yeah, as a in a as a buy. But I mean, they'd be right there at what they'd be right there at five and six.
SPEAKER_05:Or no, no, six and uh seven and eight, my bad.
SPEAKER_03:Or make it so make it so that um make it so that you know you you can't drop in the rankings unless you flip-flop with the team that beat you in the conference.
SPEAKER_01:They got a big thing. Yeah, they have to already be ranked.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, they're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, they got to already have ranked something. Like obviously, Ohio, I think Indiana, they absolutely should move around if, you know, depending on who runs that. Yeah. I I I totally get it. But like situations where there's a team at five that's 11-1, and you got a team at three that's 11-1, but it's going into an additional game, you shouldn't be able to win or lose, you shouldn't be able to drop over a team that didn't make their conference championship. And I know this may sound uh contradictive because I don't know how what my feelings were on the same thing in the past. Well, I know I don't have another 12-team playoff to because I I knew we were making it last year, so I I can't really say how I would have felt.
SPEAKER_01:Because I always try to put myself in these same teams' positions and and and see what I would like receive. Well, okay, how about this then? I will my team was in that position last year. True. And I think it was some B. I mean, and I think the rest of the world thought it was some BS that you leave, you left Alabama out. You literally put them at 12, but then let in a team. And I think that's the reason why they did away with the the conference championship automatically in. Because there's no way that who was the Arizona State? Nah, they still they still got that though.
SPEAKER_03:They still got they still got the uh conference champions automatically in. That's why we're talking about Virginia and Duke. One of those teams is gonna be in the playoffs.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's an ACC. Well, okay then. So why don't the uh so the other um the Big 12? So Sunbelt.
SPEAKER_05:So Sunbelt in America doesn't get the piece?
SPEAKER_01:It's just Big Ten, SEC, ACC, and Big 12. Right, but I'm talking about I'm talking about where last year where Arizona State was Big 12. Right, but I'm just saying, like, they won they weren't ranked higher. You know what I'm saying? Like, even though they went to the conference championship. They won it though, didn't they? Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm saying is is that even though Alabama was ranked higher than them, they won the conference championship to get in. They weren't even ranked top 12.
SPEAKER_03:That's the same thing that's gonna happen this year. Because um Miami currently is 12. They're gonna get booted out for at minimum, gonna get booted out for uh uh uh Duke or uh Virginia.
SPEAKER_01:But I don't think and see I don't think they're probably out of there too. But Virginia's also 7-1.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know, I just don't know how Duke got in. I mean, Duke 6-2, Georgia Tech 6-2, Pittsburgh 6-2, Miami 6-2, and SMU 6-2, and they didn't play each other.
SPEAKER_01:Them tired. I see why I see why Miami, I see why Miami is currently ranked. They lost to SMU. So that was their way into the what you call it, the championship. Because they had SMU ranked number two, but SMU also is not ranked in the country, which Duke ain't either. Like, I would have been if they would have at 8-4, which is still a better record than Duke, why did you not put SMU in? It's it's it goes uh the the tiebreakers.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, we talked about this with the uh big team. I don't think it's let me see.
SPEAKER_01:Let me see it. Let me look at SMU's record. Uh play. Who did they play? They beat Miami. It's not even about rankings, rankings don't matter for conference. No, no, I know, but that's what I'm saying. Right now they got them ranked number, they have SMU ranked number two in the conference. It's not even about rank. Like what is it then? I guess it's just conference, conference record and tiebreakers. Okay, conference record. Them and Duke didn't play each other. They both have a six-and-two record, but in the conference standings, you have SMU number two. That's what I'm saying. Now, if Duke was number two, I'd be like, okay, because the standing the standings take into consideration the overall record.
SPEAKER_03:The conference don't care nothing about it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, then cool then. If you look at the overall, SMU's conference record is the same as Duke's. It's and their overall record, yes, and their overall record is better than Duke. That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03:But you gotta look at all them tiebreakers. All the tiebreakers in conference isn't just like ESPN posting, hey, they're both six and two, they got the better record. It's like you gotta look at like uh common uh opponents' records against them.
SPEAKER_01:It gets like stupid. No, I understand. Like, okay. Let me let me let me. I don't even, I mean, they've already and Duke has already lost to Virginia.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. But it just depends on it depends on who SMU lost to.
SPEAKER_01:SMU SMU lost to Baylor and TCU. And then what it what it what did uh Virginia and Duke do against, or what did Duke do against them?
SPEAKER_03:Uh didn't play 'em. So ACC tiebreaker rules, head to head competition. That's out the window because Duke, you said Duke and uh SMU didn't play each other. Win percentage against common opponents.
SPEAKER_04:So you gotta look at I don't know if they had let's see, let's see common opponents. They didn't play E. We're gonna figure this out right now. Baylor. Did they play Baylor? Nope. Both teams didn't play Baylor. Missouri State. Nope. TCU. Nope. They didn't both. They both didn't play TCU. Syracuse. That might be the only one. Syracuse. Duke beat Syracuse 38-3. SMU beat Syracuse 31 to 18.
SPEAKER_01:That's the only common opponent? I'm still going through the record. Let's see. Stanford.
SPEAKER_04:Nope. They both didn't play. Let's see. Clemson.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, Clemson. Duke beat Clemson 46 to 45. SMU beat Clemson 35 to 24. That's a bigger win. Now that that doesn't matter. It's not. I'm just saying, I'm just thinking about if you think about common poems and how you beat them.
SPEAKER_03:And again, we're not thinking about this from our vantage point. We're thinking about this from the ACC tiebreaker rules.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so Wake Force.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so this might be the only thing that separates them. They both play Wake Forest. SMU lost to Wake Forest by one point. There it is. By one point. And and uh Duke beat them by beat them by 17.
SPEAKER_05:That may be the game, just the one separation game.
SPEAKER_01:That's the game that the tiebreaker.
SPEAKER_03:Because like I said, I'm reading it verbatim uh from from the internet here. Uh let's see. Boston College against common opponents. If the teams are still tied, the next factor is win percentage against all common opponents.
SPEAKER_04:Luke. So what I think Luke is okay. Cal. Let's see, Cal Duke beat Cal by 14. SMU beat Cal by 3.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, it may have come down to the points then. It's four, it's 4-0 against 3-1. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Duke is undefeated against the same teams that SMU play. SMU is 3-1. So that's how they got in.
SPEAKER_04:It's crazy, but no, no, I just want to make I'm like, because this is just mind-boggling. Like stuff like that just be blowing me. I'd be like, bro, like, come on, that's wild.
SPEAKER_01:Do we really gotta go through all like just you can see who clearly needs to be in?
SPEAKER_03:They should make it conference record, and then the type the first tiebreaker should be overall record.
SPEAKER_01:But again, we don't we don't we don't call the shot, so at all.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, that is that's it's crazy.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, so then I bet you could go back to that game and like pinpoint the one mistake that they made that that cost them. That cost one individual mistake, a chance at a conference championship and a chance at a playoff uh appearance. Probably just one muff punt, one miss field.
SPEAKER_01:Or something, a miss tackle or something. Anything.
SPEAKER_03:It can even come down to a couple yards. Like, I mean, we could we could probably pull up that game, a one-point game. That literally came down to something goofy. And it probably came down to the last second, the last yard, the last quarter of a yard. Who knows? Actually, now I'm I'm I'm like they call football, it's a game of entry. Yep. So we said we're looking at the SMU and Wake Forest game, was it? Yep. 13 to 12. Oh man. And then 13 to 12, that leads me to the belief the weather was probably trash. It couldn't have been, but it's it's something you gotta think about.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:13 to 12, usually if that's the the final in a college game, like a lot happened. Yeah, there was something something going on. Use more times than not, probably got shitty weather or high winds or you know, anything could have anything could happen. Yeah. Wake had uh five turnovers and still won. That's the first one. SMU had three. SMU only had eight first downs the entire game. What? Yeah, so that's probably they were fourth for 17 on third down. They lost to uh uh time of possession.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's a lot going on. Yeah, man. It probably just a nasty football, probably just a defensive game, and it probably was a really good football game, but yeah, it probably could have been, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03:They were out um uh outgained on the ground and in the air. And that's hey, that's what happens. It's how the cookie crumbles.
SPEAKER_04:All right, so man, we will re based on these games we got coming up, we can have a two-loss Georgia team, we can have a two-loss Texas Tech team, we can have a one-loss BYU has to win to stay in. Miami's out no matter what. Uh and Virginia's Virginia or Duke is gonna be in. So that's that's the current setup right now. And Ohio State and Indiana may switch places at some point, it you know, depending on who wins. Yep. Like, so so I think that's pretty much every scenario. So damn.
SPEAKER_03:And let me just I'm I'm gonna throw this in there and we can move on.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, we got oh my god. Let's go. IU, Texas Tech. Yeah, you could put them over Georgia. That's what I was thinking too.
SPEAKER_03:I just want to throw this. This is one thing I just so um Wake Forest took over the ball on the final possession with six seconds left, and they kicked the field goal with no time remaining, 50 yarder to win that game against SMU. So, like we said, literally came down to the last six seconds of the game. They got the ball back with six seconds that's crazy on the own field goal on their own 42.
SPEAKER_01:Um was it a fumble or it was a loss of downs?
SPEAKER_03:It was uh um they punt it. So they they SMU punted the ball to Wake Forest. Wake Forest took over with six seconds left.
SPEAKER_01:They threw a uh a 25-yard. Okay, I'm about to say, so was it a bad punt? Oh let's see, they probably were deep in their own.
SPEAKER_05:Oh that's what I'm thinking. They probably was on their territory, but still, you probably kick it to at least the well, I guess if you kicked it up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, they were they were on their own 14, so you figure he probably kicks the ball physically from the fucking from them there one yard line down there. Yeah, yeah. It definitely is the five. Um, he hit a 44 yard punt, which is I mean, that's decent for college, not amazing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, but that's still put you at the what, the 50 55 yard line, 50 yard line?
SPEAKER_01:55 yard line. Yeah, 55, right. 45.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, the 45, but not yet.
SPEAKER_01:And then put then you throw 25 yards, yep, and you kick the field goal, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:They uh they spiked the ball four seconds and kicked the field goal, and that was that was it. So, yeah, that that six second cost SMU everything the whole season. Now they're playing in the in the goddamn um tarp mode. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Oh man. Yeah. No, okay. That's crazy. That's crazy. All right, man.
SPEAKER_01:Enough college. I think we pretty much covered everything. Yes, sir. Oh, predictions.
SPEAKER_03:So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go, uh, I'm gonna go Ohio State, I'm gonna go Alabama, I'm gonna go Virginia, and I'm going to go um Texas Tech.
SPEAKER_04:Um, okay. I'm gonna go. I'm definitely gonna go Alabama. I'm gonna choose Chaos and go IU. Um, I just want to get them some love. And I don't know. I just I just want to get them some love. It's it's I it's nothing personal. Uh of course, JMU. I think they beat Troy. Uh I was just talking about the ones that beat True. Yeah, no, I'm just well, I can see them right here. That's the real I'm just going down the line. Um North Texas probably beat Tulane. And I don't again, I'm gonna choose Chaos again, and I'm gonna pick BYU just because I just don't they got smashed the first time. I don't think if you don't win that game, your season's over. Like, you don't get in. So hopefully they show some type of pride and learn something from that first game, because that just can't happen.
SPEAKER_05:And just so they can probably fix this system next year when they change all of this again, because I'm sure it is, once they find a new, I don't know if you want to call it commissioner or committee, head committee person or whatever.
SPEAKER_04:I'm gonna pick Duke. Just so hopefully they win and get in, and they can see how ridiculous 7-5 team is being in there.
SPEAKER_05:When you already got Miami ranked 12th, just put them in the conference championship and let the chips follow where they make.
SPEAKER_01:At least you can justify, at least you will be able to justify Virginia at what? If they win, it'd be 11 and 2 beating Miami to get that 12th spot.
SPEAKER_04:That makes more sense.
SPEAKER_03:Nah, I agree.
SPEAKER_04:Than an unranked, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Duke, that's nowhere near being ranked to get in, to jump over all these teams, to jump over however many teams, probably 30 teams to get in at 12.
SPEAKER_03:I find it interesting that the Duke and Virginia game uh is the only one that's at the same time as another game. So you got the Big 12 championship at 12, so that's gonna be pretty much the only thing on there. You got Georgia is at 4. That's gonna be the only thing on there. And then they have Are You in Ohio State at 8, but then they also snuck in Duke and Virginia at 8.
SPEAKER_04:And you got North Texas in Tulane, who cares? But no, no, that's on Friday. Never mind. I'm tripping. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, no, you're right. You're right. That Duke of Virginia. They know what it is. All alumni, bro.
SPEAKER_03:Ain't nobody watching that.
SPEAKER_01:Nobody cares. No, but that game.
SPEAKER_03:If you didn't go to Duke or Virginia, you're not watching it. You don't care at all. I don't even think Duke and Virginia fans are gonna be watching that game over Ohio State and IU.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, because I mean, and then Miami fans don't care because that doesn't, they're just yeah, they're just out.
SPEAKER_01:They're just even though I am a Miami fan. I do like, I do like the game. They're dead, dead meat right now. But yeah, they're out. Yeah, so it don't matter to them. It don't matter to anybody else, but them.
SPEAKER_03:Notre Dame is uh definitely gonna be interested in that 12 o'clock game, though, for sure. They're gonna be interested in that for sure. Because if BYU wins that, I think Notre Dame is cooked. I think I What do you mean cooked?
SPEAKER_05:You think like outcooked?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. If if BYU steals a only chance I feel like Notre Dame has to make it in is if Texas Tech knocks BYU out. But even still, it's gonna be some 11-2, 10-2. You still have some discussion, but I think those.
SPEAKER_05:I just think they'll shuffle around.
SPEAKER_04:The only new team that will that's coming in is is either Virginia or Duke, and then Miami's going out. I don't think Notre Dame gets out.
SPEAKER_01:Or yeah, we only got one spot that's up for grabs, really. They're 12, though, ain't they? No, Notre Dame is 10. Miami's 12. That's what I'm saying. Miami's gonna be out by whoever wins the ACC. BYU is 11. If BYU wins, I mean, or loses, I mean, that puts them as a two-loss team. I don't think that kicks them out. And even I mean, I mean, that doesn't kick Notre Dame out. BYU may be out, but that's when we start talking about the Vanderbilt, that probably puts a Vanderbilt in, or even if you want to leave Miami in.
SPEAKER_05:But then you got to compare Miami and BYU. Like, do you really think Miami's that much better than BYU?
SPEAKER_04:Or how do you, you know what I mean? So you think Miami didn't even go for the championship thing? Regardless. I think Notre Dame is in regardless.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, if you look at Vanderbilt, like, how how do you justify that? How do you how do you how do you justify that uh Notre Dame is better than Vanderbilt?
SPEAKER_01:Sure, you already got them ranked higher than them already. I mean, granted, they're the resume is there for for them. Like you said, they got two out of the Vanderbilt after out of the five ranked games they played, or six ranked games they played, they got two losses. So they four and two against ranked teams. They beat everybody, and they beat everybody else.
SPEAKER_03:No, they they beat SC and Pitt, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't even realize how that they were ranked, but but Northern, they lost two, they lost to a ranked Miami, and they lost to a ranked Texas AM.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Those are their first two losses. That's cool. But then I mean, but but look who else you beat up on. You beat up on a Purdue, you beat up on a Arkansas, you beat up on a Boise State, you beat up on an NC State, you beat up on a Navy. Like Boston College, I think, at one win all season, they beat them by 63. Exactly. You beat you beat Syracuse by 63. Like, you know what I mean? Like, these are your wins. So I wouldn't, if they did put Notre Dame out, I wouldn't be mad. But I mean, looking at BYU, like BYU's record is not that much better.
SPEAKER_03:One thing you gotta look at also is if somebody wins, does that improve uh one of um Vanderbilt's losses? Which would be means for them to jump up. Like, I don't know if that correlates, but I'm just like I said, just devil's advocate. I'm just throwing out scenarios.
SPEAKER_01:Um, let's see. Um maybe if Alabama, well, they lost to Alabama. I mean, nobody on there did they beat.
SPEAKER_03:I mean so if Alabama zips up Georgia, does the committee say, oh damn, well, hey.
SPEAKER_01:Well, my only thing with that is is that if they had a if they had a loss to George or a loss to well, they got a loss to Alabama. I mean, what it would have to be is the one of the teams that won, one of the one of the teams they lost to would have had well, that is Alabama. I don't know. But like, hey, look, we lost to Alabama, but you know what I mean? Like Georgia did too, twice. Yeah, and then they lost to Texas, but so did Texas and them.
SPEAKER_03:It's like they're you can make a case for them being one of the 10 and two teams that make it in.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, so you knock out BYU in Miami, you leave Notre Dame and you throw in Vanderbilt and whoever the winner is of Duke and Virginia.
SPEAKER_03:Man, this, yeah, this is this is because what a deal has to make. This is a pretty much. Because if that's the case, then if only one team currently in the 12 has to come out, then it's automatically Miami.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's automatic. Because, like I said, they're not in their conference championship. So their conference championship is gonna take their spot.
SPEAKER_04:The question is if BYU loses and turn into 10-2 instead of 11-1, do you kick them out and put in a different 10-2 team?
SPEAKER_01:You might, because they're already at 11.
SPEAKER_00:But but lose 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, then okay, then but with that then, right now you have Vanderbilt ranked at 14 under Miami and Texas. So if BYU come out, do you throw Miami back in there?
SPEAKER_03:Nah, I think Vanderbilt hops. I think Vanderbilt hops and get that.
SPEAKER_02:I think they hop Miami and Texas?
SPEAKER_03:They they should already be above Texas. You think so?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. After beating after them beating Texas and him?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I feel like the the records are the the schedules are close enough to where one loss should. I feel like both teams are pretty much in that same category as far as who they beat, whatever, who they've lost to. They play in the same conference. They're like of the same caliber. So I think that one loss should, you know, I think that one loss should be.
SPEAKER_04:They shouldn't be there.
SPEAKER_01:Over over Vanderbilt. Over Vanderbilt, yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I'm not I don't argue that.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't see how at nine and three they're 13.
SPEAKER_04:Over 210-2 teams.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm even looking at Utah, like, let's see.
SPEAKER_05:Uh they're only, shoot, they're they lost to Texas Tech and BYU.
SPEAKER_04:Those are their loss, but they beat Arizona State, who was ranked, and they beat Cincinnati, who was ranked at that time. But and nobody else has even been a contest. They've been whooping on everybody else. I mean, literally, whooping on everybody else. Kansas State was their only really competitive game. The rest of them were double-digit wins. So, I mean, yeah, I would I would definitely, Texas would have been at 15, and I would have definitely moved up Vanderbilt and Utah. Um, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I think that'll be a decision they would have to make next week.
SPEAKER_04:You start looking at these 10-2 teams, you look at uh or 11-2 teams, you look at BYU, you look at Notre Dame, uh, you're looking at Vanderbilt and Miami, and you're like, okay, out of these teams, like who has the best, like who has the best uh resume? And I think I think after looking at it, I think you're right. I think Vanderbilt probably has the best. But then do you want to they gonna they're gonna be talking crazy? You're gonna have five SC, six FCC teams, man. I mean, shit, it is what it is. For sure. Yeah, I guess we'll see, man, after this weekend, man. We'll be on next week to definitely update this because this this is pure madness. All right, man. Let's uh let's talk a little football, man. We said we weren't gonna be long, man. We just went damn near 45 minutes on college football.
SPEAKER_01:Because it's a lot going on. Yep, it's a lot, it's definitely a lot, and we still could even go longer.
SPEAKER_04:Like yes, because I mean we we cover like every scenario, but yeah. All right, man. We're gonna look at week 13 and uh talk about week 14 playoff uh preview and start looking at some of these playoff scenarios, man. Right now, uh just to let y'all know what the playoff picture is. Um right now in the AFC, you got New England at the one seed at 11-2. You got Denver at the two seed at 10-2, uh, Jacksonville at the third seed right now at uh eight and four, and then Baltimore as a fourth seed at six and six. Uh those are all your conference uh leaders right now. And then at six, you got I mean at five, you got uh the Chargers at 8-4, Indiana at 8-4 at 6th seed, and then Buffalo at the 7th seed at 8-4.
SPEAKER_01:Uh in the NFC, you got right now Chicago is the number one seed at 9-3. Uh the Rams 9-3 at the second seed, Philly at the third seed at 8-4, Tampa Bay at the fourth seed at 7-5.
SPEAKER_04:Those are all your conference leaders right there. And then 5th, you got Seattle at 9-3, Green Bay at 8-3-1 at the sixth seed, and then San Francisco rounding out the bottom at 9-4 at the seventh seed, which is crazy. Um, just a 9-4 team at 7.
SPEAKER_01:So we got some scenarios with this too. Uh, granted, we got what? We coming up on week 14. So we got four weeks left. Five. Well, five, including this one.
SPEAKER_05:Um but yeah, man, what we got we got some close races. Definitely with the AFC South. You got Jacksonville at 8-4, Indianapolis at 8-4, but then you got a surging Houston at 7-5.
SPEAKER_01:Um, AFC West, you got Denver at 10-2, you got Los Angeles at 8-4, but then you got Kansas City sitting there at 6-6. Then you look at the AFC North. We were just talking about that. You got Baltimore at 6 6, you got Pittsburgh at 6-6, but you got Cincinnati just on the road right now at 4-8. I wouldn't say all that. Bro, they bro, they've been playing. They are on the road. Like, they've been playing really good football on both sides of the ball. We ain't been able to say that all year. But the last couple weeks, they've been playing good football on both sides of the ball. Like, and we were just talking about there's a chance that they can be the one they can win the ball. They can win the division.
SPEAKER_03:It wasn't easy to be that.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, then you look at the NFC West, where you're possibly gonna get three teams in all with nine wins right now. The Rams, the Seahawks, and the Niners all got nine wins. Um Tampa Bay, you look at the NFC South, Tampa Bay 7-5 right now, leading. But you got Carolina at 7-6. And they play before the end of the season. Uh NFC North, another close one. While you got Chicago at 9-3, you got Green Bay at 8-3, but then you got Detroit at 7-5. Like everybody's on everybody's heels outside of the NFC, NFC East and the AFC East. Those are pretty much what they're gonna be. Um I don't see nobody really making no moves unless Buffalo loses out and Miami wins out.
SPEAKER_04:That maybe could be a switch. Uh, but don't foresee any one of those things happening. But you got Detroit on the prowl, uh, Carolina, uh, Houston, and Kansas City, and Pittsburgh, and possibly Cincinnati, possibly, all on the hunt right now in the AFC and the NFC. So uh, but like I said, a lot of these teams play each other. You're looking at we preview week 14 right now, um, you get Steelers Baltimore. So those teams are gonna separate each other right there. Um you get Coach Jaguars, those two teams are gonna separate themselves right there. Still two games.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. You get Bengals, you get Bengals Buffalo, even though they're in different divisions. If Bengals win, they now five and eight. They're right there behind Pittsburgh. If Pittsburgh loses, let's say Pittsburgh loses, they go six and seven, and now you guys are five and eight Cincinnati.
SPEAKER_04:They right there. Um what other division we were talking about? Uh, who do Chargers play? Chargers play Philly. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05:If if chargers lose, that puts them at uh that puts them at eight and five.
SPEAKER_01:Kansas City plays the Texans. Let's say Kansas City wins, that puts them at seven and six.
SPEAKER_04:Now they won game back on on the Chargers. You know, so it's a lot of situations where these teams can can definitely, these teams that are on the come up or need wins, have the opportunity to knock some of these teams out there in front of them.
SPEAKER_03:Yep, it can certainly get crazy for sure.
SPEAKER_04:Who's Carolina? Uh let's see who Carolina played.
SPEAKER_02:Carolina got a bye this week?
SPEAKER_04:Yep, last week for buys. Yeah. Carolina got a bye this week. So yeah, because who Tampa Bay play, uh, they play the Saints, which That'll be a win. Yeah. Oh yeah, is that Tampa Bay?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so Oh, I thought you said I thought you said New Orleans. You said so.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, no, no, no. I was saying the game is, I thought you were saying you ain't gotta ask where it is. So the Saints is no, excuse me. Who's playing? Tampa Bands, Tampa Bay and the Saints playing each other. I was saying it's in Tampa Bay. I thought you were gonna ask.
SPEAKER_03:I was saying the Chiefs were playing the Saints.
SPEAKER_04:No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_03:Oh no, I got that. Okay. No, all right. So I was saying the Chiefs is gonna beat them wherever, but the Saints play Tampa Bay. Okay, I got you.
SPEAKER_04:Let's say the Lions win. Let's let's create some chaos real quick. Let's say Dolphins beat the Jets. Let's say Baltimore beats the Steelers, Tampa Bay beats them. Uh let's say the Colts win. Uh doesn't matter between Titans and Browns, don't matter between Washington and Minnesota, Seahawks. Let's see, are they in any controversy? Not really. They probably gonna make it in regardless. So let's just say they beat let's say they beat the let's say they beat the Falcons. Let's say Bengals beat uh Buffalo.
SPEAKER_03:We actually do well against Buffalo, too. I don't even know if we lost to Buffalo in the Josh Allen era. Well, definitely not since like our Super Bowl appearance here.
SPEAKER_04:Let's say that Green Bay, let's say the Bears beat Green Bay, uh Rounds beat Cardinals. Let's say we say Kansas City, let's say Kansas City beats the Titans, I mean the uh Texans, and we get Philly, let's say Philly beats the Chargers. If that if that happens, Denver moves to the number one seed in the AFC. Indiana uh the the pro the Colts move to the third seed. Jacksonville goes to the sixth seed.
SPEAKER_02:Um San Francisco moves to the sixth seed, Green Bay moves to seventh with uh Philly moves to third, Seattle stays at five.
SPEAKER_04:Now, oh we'll see the coats in Seattle play. See, like this is a crazy game. You get Buffalo at New England. Buffalo beats them. Does that change anything? Yeah, that moves Buffalo into the fifth seed. Yeah. I need to see what the Bengals gotta do. Let's say the Bengals beat the Ravens.
SPEAKER_03:Our shit is not even that complicated for real, for real. Not really. Y'all just gotta win. Yeah. Especially if, especially if we beat, if we beat the Steelers and the Ravens, no, no, we don't play the Steelers again. If we beat the Ravens and beat the um and beat the Browns, we finish, what, five and one in the in the conference? If we do that and then beat Buffalo, which so we got Buffalo, we the remaining games left. We got Buffalo, beatable, we got Cleveland, beatable. We got um the uh uh uh Cardinals, that's a winnable game. Um the Dolphins, that's a winnable game, and then we got the Ravens. Not in that order, but right, those are all winnable games, for sure. But we we damner would have to have every every one of them. That's the part that I don't think is gonna happen. But the last two years we have caught fire at the end and ran the table. Um, so shit, I think Burrow is what, eight and oh in the last games that he starts. Like, so that was the three games this season, plus the last five of last year. So Burrow hasn't lost the game that he started damn near in a yeah. So, I mean, we'll see. We can definitely, that was a that's a definitely a favorable um, you know, little run there, especially with uh the Steelers reeling right now. Um sorry, I'm a little under the weather. I can't keep coughing, but it's definitely with the Steelers kind of just struggling right now, and uh the Ravens, I don't know what the hell happened to the Ravens. Um, so it's it could happen. It really could.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. And I'm just looking, week 16, Tampa and uh Carolina play, so that can easily switch.
SPEAKER_03:Man, Tampa Bay's had a hell of a schedule. I mean, they've played everybody, they've played everybody. So that for them to what are what are they like six and four, six and five?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I just have to clear. They got this criteria where you could, yeah, they're seven and five.
SPEAKER_03:Seven and five with that, I mean, I feel like they've played everybody. I could be tripping, but let's see.
SPEAKER_04:Nope. They play the Texans, they played the Eagles, they played the Seahawks, the Niners, the Lions, the Patriots, the Bills, the Rams.
SPEAKER_03:That's crazy.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like investigate their their their who made that schedule. That is crazy.
SPEAKER_04:And then they still get the Panthers twice before the end of the season.
SPEAKER_03:Pretty much all those teams are in in the every team they've played is in the hunt except for the Saints and the Jets. Everybody else is is and the Falcons. They played the Falcons already? Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that first game is gonna be.
SPEAKER_03:What'd you say their record was? Seven and five?
SPEAKER_05:Seven and five.
SPEAKER_03:Was that three games? Well, the Cardinals, too. So I guess the Cardinals won.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you gotta think they beat the Texans. They beat the Niners. They beat the Seahawks. They won some good games.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, uh, if they had the ranking system like college, man, they even at seven and five, they would be up there. They are five weeks. Yeah. Yes, some of them were on the road too. You went to the Texans and won. You went all the way to across the country to Seahawks and won. That's probably got to be the longest travel anyway.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, from Tampa, Tampa to Seattle, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But depending on where were they the week before? Well, they always go home though. So yeah, they go home after every game. So they were flying from Tampa all the way to Seattle.
SPEAKER_04:No, they was at home. Okay, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No, what I'm saying is they go home after every game anyway.
SPEAKER_04:Right, but no, I was looking at the game before they was at they was played the Eagles at home, so they were they were definitely coming from home. I was just saying.
SPEAKER_03:But no, I'm saying they would have been coming from home regardless.
SPEAKER_01:Regardless, yeah. But I'm just saying it wasn't like they was at Philly, then had to go home, and then had to fly to Seattle. You see what I'm saying? They didn't have enough two away games back to back.
SPEAKER_03:I thought you were meaning that they went from if they would have played at Philly, that they would go from Philly to Seattle.
SPEAKER_01:I'm like, nah, they No, that's what I'm saying. They go from Philly to to Tampa and then go from Tampa to Seattle. That still would have been.
SPEAKER_03:Like after a Sunday game. Like I don't know if that really plays a part in their like considered travel, but that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01:They probably they probably looked at that too and and made it that way so it'll work out. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:I've seen some, I've seen like the 49ers play back-to-back games out on the East Coast. And in that situation, they have stayed. They've done that before. But yeah, I've definitely seen some teams come from the West Coast. I wouldn't want to go back home. Go back and then come back out. Yeah, I've seen it before. Shit's crazy. I wouldn't want to. I know some college teams do it too.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Shit's weird.
SPEAKER_04:We definitely got some situations brewing, man. Yeah, like I feel like the Colts are definitely in a must-win situation right now. Um let's see, the Chargers, I feel like they gotta beat Philly. Philly with a loss. I mean, put that that nobody's in the in the NFC East is threatening them. So I feel like the the Chargers gotta win. Because if they lose and go to eight and five, and Kansas City beats the Texans and go to seven and six, then I just feel like Kansas City may catch the Chargers and get in. And we already know what may what's gonna happen if they get in the playoffs. So who else? Like we said, we talked about the AFC North, which you know, Baltimore and Pittsburgh uh play. And then, like we said, Cincinnati on the hunt. Detroit, uh NFC North Green Bay, another one who gotta win some games. Uh, and they play the Bears this week, so that may be a loss. So 8-4, and then Detroit. Let's say they play Dallas. That's a very winnable game. Uh so if they, you know what I mean? They go to 8-5.
SPEAKER_05:Green Bay goes to um goes to 8-4, but they got that tie. That tie may help them.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that may be the only thing that helps them. Help them home Detroit. Yeah, we talked about that last week. That may be the only thing that helps them. It can help and hurt.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's one that's one less loss, but it's also one less win. So it's changing. They can end the like tie with somebody in the loss column, but not in the win column, and that'll kick them out. But they can also tie with somebody in the win column and then not in the loss column, which would help them in that situation. So, yeah. So it's it's kind of like a tiebreaker, but you can get beat by it as well as it can help you.
SPEAKER_01:So no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:I see, and I think in Carolina and Tampa Bay play twice before the end of the season.
SPEAKER_03:So man, shout out to Tampa Bay. Granted, they did damn near lose against every tough opponent except for the Seahawks, 49ers. But I mean, they've had a hell of a hell, man, they've had a hell of a schedule. That's that's crazy. And they ended with the Saints, Falcons, Panthers, Dolphins, Panthers. I mean, and then they they still have four division games to round out the year. That is insane. Literal insanity.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:True, we got four, we do too.
SPEAKER_01:But I mean, y'all also didn't have to go through the Bills, the Rams. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_03:Eagles.
SPEAKER_04:That's crazy. Like, only our two toughest games this season before now was the Broncos and the Rams. After that, we pretty much coast until we got to the Chiefs.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04:Like, you know what I mean? With the Raiders, we could because after that, we got the Raiders, the Cardinals, the Chargers, the Titans, and the Steelers, and the Falcons. Like, but true. Then we got to, like I said, we got we got to the real shit. Tex Chiefs loss. Texans, loss. Jaguars, could be a loss. Then we play Seattle, could be a loss. Then we play the Niners, could be a loss. Then we play the Jaguars again, could be a loss.
SPEAKER_01:And then we end the season at the Texans, which could be a loss. We can we are very realistically can lose all these games. And that that boy Daniel is starting at Daniel a little bit.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, he hasn't went full Daniel mode, but the injury the injury hurt like that scares me a little bit. We know who the real Daniel Jones is, is basically what I'm trying to say. So I'm as long as y'all wait a minute. Hold him out.
SPEAKER_02:He just got rid of your draft picks.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then Austin's getting hurt. So that's not ideal either. So now you gotta, you, you really gotta spooky ours, man. Even if you make you you have to be preparing Anthony Richardson. Because there's a chance with a with a fractured, what is it, Tibula? Yeah. One wrong hit Riley Leonardo. Or Riley Leonard, but I I don't know. I don't know where you put them to. Whatever. You gotta be preparing your backup.
SPEAKER_05:I'm just gonna say your backup for whatever may come because there's a very good chance. Like you said, you're about to go up against the Texans again. Very good defense. You're about to go against the Niners, even though a lot of their top players are hurt, they're still a tough defense. And then Seattle.
SPEAKER_04:Very tough defense. Like you're about to go up against some of the top defenses in the league. Especially again after the quarterback.
SPEAKER_01:Like so one wrong fall, you know what I mean? Wrong person fall, you you know what I mean. You get tackled the wrong way, you get hit after a play the wrong way. That's all it's gonna take.
SPEAKER_04:And you could we we could be looking at a very different coach team.
SPEAKER_05:Which, like I said, out of the last four, you don't lost three out of the last four.
SPEAKER_04:So very true. Like I said, I hope not. I hope we win out. I hope things are peaches and cream. I hope nobody gets hurt. I hope everybody comes back from injury. I hope we go into the playoffs fully healthy. All of that. I want all of that for my team. Also, not my team. I'm just gonna leave that there. I'm not getting my hopes up because we've been on this road for about 10 years now. So yeah. All right, man.
SPEAKER_01:That's all I got, man.
SPEAKER_03:Cool, cool. I know I said I had some, but I can't even remember what the hell it was. Oh, come on. Yeah, I can't remember what it was, man. I was sitting here trying to think about it a couple minutes ago, and I I've I've lost it. I don't remember what I was gonna ready to say. I know as soon as we hit end broadcast, I'm gonna remember, but yeah, I I can't remember.
SPEAKER_01:Did you want to talk about the Russell Westbrook? Allen Iverson comparison?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, we could talk about that, but hold on. It's it's it's right there. Hold on one second. Uh what the hell was it? It was right there at the top of the room.
SPEAKER_04:It had something to do with LeBron. Uh what else have we been talking about lately?
SPEAKER_06:Shit.
SPEAKER_01:Uh was it basketball? Was it football? Man, bro. I'm I'm drawing.
SPEAKER_03:I'm trying my best to remember, but I'm I'm I've got nothing. But yeah, I mean, we could talk about that real quick, though. Um I saw Isaac posted something talking about uh uh Kendrick Perkins is saying that he's taking Russell Westbrook's career over Allen Iverson's. And I was saying, as crazy as that sounds, I agree. Um I agree. I I just I I I don't see how you can't. Like based on what I know people like to say, well, impact to the game or influence or people started wearing cornrows. Cause I I mean, I I like to talk about basketball. Like I want to talk about basketball. Basketball-wise, I mean, you'd almost have to go with Russ, but I mean, that's neither here nor there. But I'm I'm I think I'm rolling with I know I'm for sure that I'm rolling with Russ's career over Allen Iverson's. Like I said off the air, I think the top three guys that I think get so much like nostalgia benefit of the doubt are Allen Iverson, um uh Dwayne Wade, and uh Derrick Rose. I think pop culture, and I say that meaning just people, people have them, they they love them. They love those guys. Like, I've never heard a negative word being spoken about any any of those guys, but I think they're they're guys better than them. I saw something earlier saying like uh Shay over uh Dwayne Wade.
SPEAKER_01:Brother, Shay is better at basketball than Dwayne Wade. I don't I don't know about that, bro. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, he's tougher, or he came back in that series. What can you say about Dwayne Wade's career that would would make him behind Shay? What has he got? She Shay has an MVP, Dwayne Wade has none. Shay has a ring, Dwayne Wade has a has three, but we know that two of them were LeBron. What what what is it? Like all you I think Shay might even already have more first team All-NBAs. If he's if if if Shay even stays on a plateau where he is for the rest of his career, he but he's gonna be the the third best two guard ever. Behind Jordan and Kobe.
SPEAKER_04:I think if you again, like kind of what we be we've been talking about with with all these things is that like putting that to the side, if we're just talking about basketball, and kind of like the comparison I made earlier with AI and and and Alan Iverson, if you You mean you say AI and AI and not my fault, AI and Russell Westbrook.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, I just want you to clarify if you put those two up playing basketball next to each other, like you may think differently. If you take numbers style of play? No, I'm just saying, like, if you just I mean, even style of play, you just look at like how they play, because if we're talking about basketball, we're talking about on the court, we're talking about we're talking about that. I mean, if you if we just talking stats, then yeah, we just talk stats.
SPEAKER_03:If style, if you're so if you're looking at style of play, who are you taking? You taking AI?
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:I'm taking Russ because Russ is gonna put some boys in the hoop.
SPEAKER_01:Alan Iverson ain't dunking on nobody, but Alan Iverson also made a lot of people fall. I get that. That was gonna be my next point. Like I'm taking away. He made dunk russ may dunk on Russ may dunk on somebody, but Alan Ivan's taking that over cross on somebody. He probably has one of the most iconic crossovers ever. Facts, no doubt, no doubt. Like his crossover, they changed the rules in the league, so he couldn't even do the cross that crossover anymore.
SPEAKER_03:There's a lot of guys that got that signature thing. You got Harden with the step back, you got Curry with three from wherever. I mean, there's a lot of guys that have like signature things.
SPEAKER_01:But like Duncan, like Duncan, like if you talk if you start thinking about Dunkers, you're not thinking about Russell Russbrook. He's not like one of those dice you like, oh, he's uh you start thinking about like Vince.
SPEAKER_03:Athleticism and uh that's because he's like he he ain't really 6'6 or 6'8 either. But if I'm thinking about uh athleticism and explosion, I'm absolutely thinking about Russbrook. He's probably the most explosive times athletic person, one of the greatest in the history of the league.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, if you look at his size, yeah. You put him with the D-Roses and those guys, the jobs. He's like a 6'4, 364, you know.
SPEAKER_03:So, I mean, obviously, you know, you you that probably isn't the sweet range for Dunkers, but he's man, yeah. If I'm if I'm looking at explosiveness, yeah, I want to go back to the to the AI, Russell Resbrook.
SPEAKER_04:So Russell Resbrook, by the way, got four extra seasons on on AI. So I'm just gonna throw that out there. But I mean, of course, no championships, neither one of them. Um you got Alan Iverson got him by two all-stars. Uh playoff seasons, they both, well, no, Russell got 14, but he done been on a bunch of other teams, but nonetheless, AI was only on really one team that went they went to the playoffs like that. Uh, they both got one MVP. Allen Iverson got him by one NBA first team. Westbrook got him by two All-NBAs, uh, just total selections, period. AI got Russell Westbrook by two scoring uh titles. Russell Westbrook got him by three assist leaders, but AI got him by three steal leaders. And AI was rookie of the year, and Russell Westbrook wasn't. So I mean, we look at accolades, like they damn near neck to neck in accolades. If you look at points per game, Allen Iverson, but you get Russell Westbrook with with rebounds, assists, six and eight right there, but you get at to Russ.
SPEAKER_01:But you look at steals, you get at the AI. So, I mean, really, they they kind of right there. And like I said, you're still giving Russ four more extra seasons than AI. Field goal percentage, they both right there. Three-point percentage, both right there. Free throw percentage, I mean, anything, I mean, it's both right there. If you look at points per game, like their best seasons, AI 33, Russell Russbrook 31.
SPEAKER_05:Uh Rebounds, of course, Russell Russbrook with 11, AI with five. Assists, AI's best season eight, Russell Russbrook's best season 12.
SPEAKER_01:Steals, both of them two and three. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:Multiple, he's averaged multiple digit steals, what, four, three seasons? Four, five seasons. Uh Russell. And he's averaged double digit rebounds once. He said double digits of steals. You mean assists? Assists, yeah, my bad. He's had double digits. Double digit, uh, yeah, that would be wild. Double digit uh rebounds four times. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So like which is fine, but I'm just saying, like, I mean, but then again, you like I say, you switch it to the other side, like like AI don't let the league in steals three times. And he got two more scoring titles than him. And and one more uh and one more NBA first team more than him.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's it's it's a no for me.
SPEAKER_01:It's really neck and neck.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean that's cool, but yeah, it's it's a it's a no for me.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I'm saying. I would take AI.
SPEAKER_05:I like AI if I'm if we're talking style, I mean that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01:Like, looking at this now, it's like, okay, well, all this shit's pretty much a watch, because like I said, everybody, they all got they both got their specialties, I guess I should say.
SPEAKER_04:But then you and style's a play, I think AI style was just crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Like that speed that he had, like going up against the shacks and like like hooping on, like going, I mean, to the bucket on these guys.
SPEAKER_04:You know what I mean? Like, was crazy. Like Russ, yeah. He done, like you said, he done put some boys in a realm.
SPEAKER_01:Like, AI, to not even be a dunker like that, like to be so crafty. You look at like the kind of like the first Kyrie-ish type of guy, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Was was really him. You know what I mean? And to not really even have the people around him to even get the assist. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03:Like, you look at some of his rosters too, it's like like that could be thrown in with uh with Russ playing with KD all those years, too. Yeah, KD's years. So for him, average what he average playing with KD is a is a plus for Russ. So I guess it's it's give and take, but yeah, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I'm saying. I think it's pretty much a wash. Like, I guess it comes, like you said, it comes down to preference. And like I said, I just prefer AI style over Russ. I don't got no, I don't not that I don't like Russ. Like, Russ is is great, and he probably will go down as probably one of the best point guards of all time, if not the best.
SPEAKER_05:Like, it ain't too many people you could put next to him, um, definitely number wise and things like that. And if he happens to steal a championship at some point in his career, because it doesn't like he's slowing down, shit.
SPEAKER_04:Well, he had season shit. This is 18th season.
SPEAKER_01:You know what I mean? So he's still athletic, he's still explosive. Shit, he just had a triple-double the other night. Yeah. So on Sacramento. Yeah, like so. And it wasn't like a bullshit when he had a no, a big one. Crazy. I think it was like 26 and 13 and 12. It was crazy. So, I mean, he's still hooping at a high level. Um, like I say, if he just happens to get on one of those teams and make a run, you know, and get him a ring, you know what I mean? Even if coming off the bench or whatever his role is, I mean, I don't think nobody cares about that when it comes to him.
SPEAKER_04:His his resume will speak so much for itself that even if you say, oh, he was the sixth man on that on that championship team, so what? Right. I don't think nobody would that would be a it wouldn't be an asterisk when you talk about him. But um, yeah. No, man. No, AI definitely, yeah. And right now, to to catch up on what you said about the the Shea uh D-Way, I don't think it's it's just not enough information there yet to to even draw that comparison. Like maybe down the line I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01:Respect. I mean, cause I and I'm biased too, because I'm a D-Way guy.
SPEAKER_04:That's fair. You know, so I'm not I'm not I'm gonna throw that out there too. So, but I mean I don't even let me see if I can get it. I might be able to get. Let's see if I can get one. Okay, I mean, yeah, because you're talking about 16 seasons to eight. Yeah. It's it's it may be a little lopsided. I mean, like you said, championships is what that is. Eight seasons to 16, playoffs 13. Dwayne been to the playoffs 13 times. Shea only been four. You got 13 all-stars to three.
SPEAKER_05:Uh MVP, like you said, he got one. D-Way don't have one. Finals MVP, they both got one. First team all NBA, Shea got three, D-Way got two, but all NBA teams.
SPEAKER_01:D got eight. D-Way got eight to Shea's three, period. And D Wade got three all-defensive teams, and Shea has none.
SPEAKER_04:They both been the scoring leader once. Shea's been the steal leaders once. Um, I guess NBA Cup first team, that's new, but whatever. Yeah, we ain't gonna be.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was about to say it was whatever. I mean, scoring, you got Shea at 24, D-Wade at 22, rebounds are the same.
SPEAKER_04:They both average five, assists, they both average five, steals, they both average one and a half, blocks is both 0.8.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that's really that's really it.
SPEAKER_04:So, like I said, I mean, if we would probably have to wait at least another couple years before Shay can, you know what I mean? Yeah, because you look at all NBAs, it's just unfair, and all defensives too. Like, I don't think it's enough, enough data there.
SPEAKER_03:So it sounds good, but uh I don't know. Because I mean, obviously, I'm taking it's like you know how they say pound for pound. Like, I'm taking that into consideration.
SPEAKER_01:Like, pound for pound, his career is is but you but but see, I have in my head, like like I said, being a fan a fan of D Wade, in my head, I remember prime D Wade.
SPEAKER_06:I do too.
SPEAKER_01:Like that time, like that, that that that that time where it was Shaq was on the back end of his career, and before LeBron, where there's a period of time where D Wade was going crazy. You know what I mean? When he was dunking on people and still like doing the craziest shit. Like, so I mean, right now you're we're seeing Shay kind of in his prime, you know what I mean, and dominating and doing his thing. You know what I mean? But he ain't been doing this for eight seasons, and he's been in the league eight seasons, you know what I'm saying? Like, we got three, we got three real good seasons of Shay. Like, there's five where he wasn't even nowhere to be found, you know what I'm saying? Out of the way seasons, how many like real good seasons do you have of him?
SPEAKER_03:You said he would have two, you said he had two first team all-based?
SPEAKER_04:You said what?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so when we had two first team all-mba's, and Shay has three so far, he's at? Yeah, but he has eight all-mba' period, so that means that could be I get that, but Shay is the way he's looking, just like Jokic, like them guys aren't coming off first team All-NBA for a while. And I mean, obviously that's technically speaking, but like him, as long as as long as Giannis is healthy, as long as uh Jokic is healthy, as long as Shay is healthy, those three guys are gonna be first team All NBA.
SPEAKER_01:So, I mean, we're gonna be. So in the next so so if in the next five seasons, he get and you know, depending he doesn't get hurt or anything like that, you know, and he gets five more, let's all NBA's period, you know, that would have him tied with D Wade. But he's still gonna have to pull out some defensive ones, too. But five, eight, eight first teams, I don't care how many all. Well, first team.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh well, I mean, if he gets first team in NBA year two, I'm better than you. I don't even get too much.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, no, no. If you get eight, yeah, but I mean, that's ain't no year two. I mean, that kind of in in in half the many, half the half the amount of seasons, I already have more first teams.
SPEAKER_03:That that kind of says something. But I mean it's it's all subjective. We can go back to the case.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but I mean, all NBA, I mean, so second and third teams don't don't matter at all?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, yeah, they matter, but if I have more first than you have in your whole career in half the amount of years or or a third of the amount of years, that speaks more volumes to you know, to me than anything. If I got three first team all NBAs in six seasons, and you have two in however many seasons you played, would he play 16, 17?
SPEAKER_01:He has Shay has three and eight seasons. Oh, three and eight. Two and sixteen.
SPEAKER_03:Sixteen.
SPEAKER_01:That ratio is is ratioing. Right, but he has eight total. I get that. But like when he gets there, we'll we we we know that he's on that path to crush that. Like, we know that this is gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00:It could be, it could be further.
SPEAKER_03:Or he could be half a pound. That's like a that's like saying a guy that has um you know 10 fights and he's beat the shit out of everybody against a guy that has you know 40 fights, but you know, he's lost a couple. Like that's when you look at it pound for pound, like his trajectory is way higher than D Wade's. I feel like the height of his career is already surpasses the height of D. Wade's career. That I feel like that's facts. I mean, it's subjective.
SPEAKER_01:But I mean, but I mean, but we I mean, like I said, we gotta wash away three defensive players, uh, all defensive teams. We gotta wash that away. That's cool. You know what I mean? Like D. Wade's best year. Because if you tap in onto that, then I mean, we're we're looking at if we're looking at all defensive, uh, we're just looking at all all. You thought that he has 11. But I mean, Tyson Chandler has defensive player of the years. Like, you can't, I don't feel like I'm talking about all defensive teams. I didn't say defensive players. Yeah, like like, yeah, they they all people have that.
SPEAKER_03:Like people have the all defensive teams. Like, but when it when it speaks to an all-around better player, like, I mean, there LeBron has none. He's, in my opinion, the best player ever. And he has no defensive player to use. Well, no, you said it was just first teams. He does have some first. Yeah, all defensive teams, yeah. Yeah, I'm uh, but yeah, I'm nothing. Like the the MVP and all, he already has more MVPs, and he already has more first team All NBAs. That that that that to me feels it. That that seals it for me. But we'll see. I mean, there's a lot, a lot of basketball left. He might quit early, but still I think pound for pound, I'm taking shade.
SPEAKER_01:And then man, I mean, also, too. We gotta hope he don't get hurt or anything like that. That's what I was saying. I mean, shit he got. Did you look at D-Wade too? We we we got some hurt years in that 16.
SPEAKER_03:I think we could get to year 10 and be like, shit, I've done everything, I'm out. But still, even then, the pound for pound, like from what I've seen, he's a better player.
SPEAKER_01:That's just that's just my opinion. Yeah, I guess we'll have to see.
SPEAKER_03:Because also, and then like I'm sure if we look up like all excuse me, all NBA teams for Harden and and uh D Wade, I'm sure Harden has more. And that's just me thinking. I think he has more, but we don't use that same argument when we debate those guys. I know he has more first teams.
SPEAKER_01:I want I'm gonna I'm gonna guess Harden has six first team All-NBAs, five. Uh let's see. Harden got one more season. Let's uh let me scroll down. He has first teams, he has six to D-weighs two, and they're both tied in all NBA section selections before total.
SPEAKER_03:I'm rolling, and he has that MVP over him. Like, I'm yeah, it's game time.
SPEAKER_01:We don't want to look at the stats. Like that. We don't even want to go. Look, points per game, Hardin averaging 24, D Wade averaging 22. We gotta take into consideration my guy was on the bench, he started on the bench. Were we we take that into consideration? He was number one. So we're gonna put so so we have to take all defensives into consideration. Is that fair?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, if you if you want to use that same same knowledge for I mean, that same notion for guys like Tyson Chandler, then by all means. I don't care. I mean, if you want to do comparison with them too. If we're gonna shit, Draymond Green's damn near top, you know what I'm saying? If we're taking defensive all defensive teams, you know, Bruce Bowen, I mean, there's a lot of guys that we gotta look at.
SPEAKER_01:But then the rest of their but then the rest of their resume is not gonna match up. We're gonna put, but and then I'm saying, if you use the- But if we're if we're comparing these two, then if we we can't pick and choose what we're gonna compare. Are we gonna compare everything? Or we're gonna, I mean, like, I have no problem.
SPEAKER_05:Like, I'm looking at the numbers right now, and they're they're very close.
SPEAKER_03:True or false that all MBAs in in uh and MVPs top pretty much any individual kind of there's nothing better that you can do as a player than be all MBA or an MVP.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so does a finals a finals MVP hold then? Shit, it don't hurt it don't hold an MVP to me. Not not a final season. You could be you could be a season MVP and get bounced in the first round.
SPEAKER_03:I I get that, but you can also be Andre Guidala and win finals MVP. That's true too. Uh so I'm not rolling. Like give me a give me a regular season MVP. There's never been a week uh um season MVP. But we have some uh we've had a few questionable finals MVPs.
SPEAKER_01:But we can't but we can't say D Wade is one of them. So if we're talking about D Wade is not one of them, but I'm just Talking about if we're weighing the actual accomplishments, yeah, I'm taking a season MVP over Yeah, but we have to weigh the accomplishments between the two players because they're skeptical finals MVPs, but there's you ain't winning no season MVP if you're not that guy. Right, but that's like me, that's like me downplaying an assist leader over a Steels leader. You know what I'm saying? Like, if these things are like it's based on what I'm just saying, it's based on what you're doing.
SPEAKER_03:There are guys that lead assists that aren't all-time greats. Bro, if you win the assist, I mean, like, let's look them up. We I'm sure we can I I'm like NBA season steals leaders. But I can already tell you ain't gonna find me no greats that went that that no guys, at least in in the modern era era, that won the assist that ain't all-time guys.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03:Like, I'm saying like you we're gonna compare I can find some steals leaders that didn't uh didn't dice not Dyson Daniels, but Jalen Johnson or win the steals, like there's guys that won the steel leaders.
SPEAKER_01:But like I'm I'm I'm I'm looking at guys that's like careers are over. Like we talking about guys that's like that's been done it, you know what I'm saying? Like, just like okay, like like AI. Do we take away him leading the leading the league and steals three times versus you know uh Russell Resberg leading the league and assists three times? Does that cancel out or do we put one over the other? Nah, I'm definitely putting assist over stills, for sure. But but without a doubt. To me, that's crazy because it's an accomplishment. How is it not? How is it not? Like I'm saying, that's like saying Draymond Green. What is it harder to do? Get an assistant. That's like saying Draymond Green's accomplishments amount to James Harden's. It's not facts, bro. It's my thing is harder. It's harder to get a steal than it is an assist. That but that's why the leader only has like two points something, and the leading assist has like 12 or 13, probably. We're looking at the actual if you look at guys that have won the steals, you know, the steals record, or not the steals record, but let the league and steals, bro, you're gonna find more all-time grapes that lead the league and assists and points over steals, like right, because it's but it's also easier to do, then everybody would do it. If it was easier to get points than get steals, then Draymond would have more points than steals, right? No, I'm saying it's easier to get assists than it is to get steals. That's why you consistently see some again the fluctuation in the assist leaders change yearly too. The but the but the statistics.
SPEAKER_03:You got you got guys, are have you found the the season by season steals leaders?
SPEAKER_04:Oh I didn't know I was looking that up.
SPEAKER_03:I can I'm sure Draymond probably got that a couple years. And like Angel Steels leaders.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let me see. Okay, I got them.
SPEAKER_03:So let's start from most recent Dyson Jangles, two years in a row, OG Ananobi, DeJounte Murray, Jimmy Butler, Ben Simmons, Paul George, Victor Depot.
SPEAKER_01:These are solid players for all these guys first battle hall of famous. Wait a minute, keep keep going. Don't stop Damon Green. Then we have Steph Curry, yeah. Okay, then you gotta be Chris Paul four times. D you get Rondo? Chris Paul ain't one of he ain't A-list. Say he's not what he's a he's a point guard, but you're not taking him over, you're not taking him over Jordan, Kobe, Braun, shit. Most of these are gonna be point guards. I get that, but you you didn't um the guys you just mentioned are not even on here. Larry, Larry, Barron Davis, Gerald Wallace, come on, then go, but then who's next? Then got AI, and then we got Eddie Jones, Kendall Gill, come on, Key Blaylock, come on. Like, what are we talking about? Gary Payton, this guy. I put it like this. There's there's there's more greats on here than there is not. And if you keep going, you'll see. But there's but look at assists. You won't find no there ain't no Gerald, no, no, uh, no Gerald Wallace's on the assist.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_01:Eddie Jones, Larry fucking Hughes. You ain't gonna find none of them on all times on on the on the season's uh assist leaders list.
SPEAKER_06:Larry Hughes, Larry Hughes. I got you.
SPEAKER_02:I got you.
SPEAKER_01:You certainly ain't gonna find it on the point. Okay. You got Jokic, Trey Young, Tyrese Halliburton, Chris Paul, Wussell Westbrook, LeBron James, uh Westbrook twice. Harden, Rondo, Chris Paul, Chris Paul, Rondo, Rondo, Steve Nash. These are the same people that's on the Steel's list. I've not heard the drew shit, bro. When have you been? Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I got you, I got you. Hold on, hold on. Andre Miller, Rod Strickland, Mark Jackson, then John Stockton, the gang of years because he died. How long back are we talking? But this is 90s. This is just as long as 99. I didn't even get it. Wait a minute. Andre Miller, wait a minute, Andre Miller led the league in assists in 2001. Okay, that's 24 years ago. Rod Strickland in 99. Okay, but the same people that you're saying aren't A-lists in steals, you're considering them A-lists on assists. Yeah, bro. They're better than Kendall.
SPEAKER_03:Everybody you named, everybody you named is better than Kendall Gill, bro. Bro, you got everybody you named is better than Mookie Blaylock.
SPEAKER_01:Bro, you went back to the city. Okay, Andre Miller. Okay, we can do the same thing. Harry's Hallenburn ain't even played long enough. We can even go there. Trey Young.
SPEAKER_03:I ain't said nothing about the years these guys played. I mean, that don't that's irrelevant.
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm talking about Trey Young. No, I'm just saying, like I'm just talking about people who ain't been around that long. So if we're just talking about seasons, they haven't played long. Like I'm saying, this whole conversation with pound for pound. Okay, so it's going pound for pound. Is Trey Young better than Dyson Daniels? Yeah, bro. Is he better than DeJounte Murray? Yeah, bro. Is he better than Victor Oladipo? Yeah, bro. Is he better than Draymond Green? Yeah. Is he better than even Ray John Rondo? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Trey Young. Trey Young isn't better than Rayon Rondo?
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. Come on, bro. In what realm of basketball? In basketball. Can't even score half of what Trey Young scores. And that's all we're talking about? Because it seems like he does everything just as good. In their level, in their level and assist. That's a lie. Ray John Rondo led the league. Let's one, two, three, what, four times? What are we talking about? Bro, who who who led the league? Trey Young's over there once. I get that, bro. But Trey Young also led the league and still and assist in the same season, bro. He said you said Dan led in what? And what in the same season?
SPEAKER_03:How far are we going back again? That shit, that's still more recently than fucking Ray John Rondo being relevant. Like he led the copy.
SPEAKER_01:So he just did nothing at Kentucky. Bro, he he didn't lead the country in scoring and assists. I know for damn sure that. I'm sure he I'm sure he probably led in steals and assists. He's also better than that. And won a national championship. He's also better than fucking OG Ananobi and goddamn DeJounte Murray for sure, bro. Trey Young is clearing all these niggas that I named for the most part. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Except for obviously Steph and Kwai. But like Draymond Green, bro. I know you're not taking Draymond Green's defensive seasons over anybody's all-time all-NBA seasons, bro. You're not doing that. I'm not I'm not rolling, bro. You're not rolling either.
SPEAKER_01:What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_03:You're not about to put Draymond Green's defensive teams up against um uh James Harden six first team all-NBA. It's like stop it, bro.
SPEAKER_01:You know that I never said that. Okay, so what are we talking about then? We were talking about Harden and D Wade.
SPEAKER_03:We talked about that after we start narrowing it down, but this started about we this started about you were comparing uh you were comparing his defensive teams to Shea having none. I'm just like bro, I'm first teams MVPs is all we're talking about, bro. That's all we but and then I was saying I was saying that there's there's a lot of there's a lot more whatever guys that won um that that skills than assist.
SPEAKER_01:That's that and I'm saying and I'm telling you that most of those guys that when you were talking about assists or that you was when you were talking about steals that you were saying oh those guys are just uh most of those guys same guys are on this on this assist. Wow, it's not that many, bro. You named probably two guys Paul on there multiple times, Steve Nash on there multiple times, uh Westbrook, these are the same guys that was on the steals thing. No, it's where is Victor Oladipo on the on the uh on the assist, bro? Where is him listen, listen, Simmons, nigga? Ben Simmons is on the led the league in steals. Ben Simmons, bro. Okay, he's the epitome of booty. Okay, like that that kills this conversation. Ben Simmons led the league in steals, bro. Okay, and so did Andrew. Yeah, we both know that he's ass. Okay, so are the assist leaders, the people who are leading in assists, or those people are elite. That's what you're saying. Uh at a more a higher ratio than people that lead the league in steals, absolutely. So if they're on both lists, they cancel each other out. Okay, but does it count? Sure. If you're comparing them, go for it. I mean, but still, if if it counts one way, it counts on the other. It counts on the yeah. But that's all I'm that's what I'm saying. I still didn't.
SPEAKER_03:I don't uh you lost me there.
SPEAKER_01:Because you just said you just said you just said that if it has to count one way, it has to count the other. And that's all I'm that was my argument from the beginning. No, I said I agree to that. If both guys, if if a the same guy was on, I can't say that Chris Paul is. The only way it counts for so only defensive, uh all defensive counts is if Shea is on that list. So if so only if they both make the same list, then it can't. If you if you tell me this guy has hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me say this.
SPEAKER_03:If a guy has eight first team all NBAs and eight first team all defenses, yes, that that lines up. But we're still talking about, but if a guy has zero first team all NBAs and eight first team all defenses, I'm nothing on him.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Okay, then so so so then if somebody has a seasoned MVP and then somebody has a finals MVP, then don't she cancel out? Because they don't, though, because there's literal proof that there are guys, just guys that have won finals MVPs. There, it's it's and I'm sure there's I'm sure there's some MVPs that you haven't heard of. Show me some seasoned, not not in the modern era, not since shit. I could go back as far as the 80s.
SPEAKER_03:Everybody was was was like, what? There's definitely been some finals MVPs that's kind of like, all right, I mean, he's cool. I think shit, Tony Parker won a finals MVP, I believe. Don't quote me on that, but there's definitely been Jalen Brown's won a conferen uh uh a finals MVP. Like, I don't even think I honestly subjectively don't think he's better than Jason Tatum, but that ain't up, that ain't up to me. But like, there's definitely some guys that have won finals MVPs that are kind of like, okay, yeah, he's a solid player, but he ain't the one of the all-time greats.
SPEAKER_01:It's happened. So like so J so so wait before so Jalen Brown.
SPEAKER_02:I think Jason Tatum was better, yes. So why didn't he win it then? They're on the same team.
SPEAKER_01:That's exactly why that's exactly but because you can win it by having a better series. Just because you have a better five games out of a playoff series don't mean that you're the overall better player. That's literally exactly my point.
SPEAKER_03:That's why a season MVP to me is more oppressive than uh uh a finals MVP, because the finals MVP goes based off that series.
SPEAKER_01:And and in certain some situations, let me say this. In certain situations, if your Steph Curry don't get you to that finals, there is no opportunity for no Andre Iguadala to win the finals MVP. If we we know who got who was responsible for that team being there. We have facts. Okay, cool. So with what you're saying, what you're saying, merit of facts. You have to get there. Everybody gets through the season, everybody plays the NBA season, but you have to get to the finals. And what I'm saying, and when the reason why I'm arguing with Dwayne Wade's MVP, because he got them to the finals. He was the driving force. So when I'm putting that up against James Harden's MVP, I'm saying it counts because he was the driving force.
SPEAKER_03:I'm not gonna say it's gonna count, but just as much or more is what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01:I'm saying James Harden isn't. I can see if James Harden, I'll put it like this. I wouldn't even give you that if James James Harden hasn't even been close. I I I'm I'm nothing. Also, a finals MVP is just as much as a uh as a team accomplishment is winning it all. They're they're neck and neck.
SPEAKER_03:Because if you ask me, LeBron should have goddamn nine um uh finals MVPs.
SPEAKER_00:He has final MVPs for all the time.
SPEAKER_01:All the other ones he's been to, he damn near should have been the finals MVP even losing. So like that that's not even that's not even helping the the the the the your argument even there. Like it ain't even the best player in the series. Wait a minute though. Wait a minute, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. There's been players who won MVPs who didn't even deserve them. We can go back to the Steve Nash MVPs. That's that's arguable, but a lot of guys do agree that he was.
SPEAKER_03:I listened to Joe Johnson say nah. Listen to Joe Johnson say nah, he was the most valuable player because without him, we couldn't win shit.
SPEAKER_01:I've heard him say that. Okay, but this is also coming from somebody who, if was on that steals or assists list, you would be talking about them. So if you're not gonna get him no merit, that's a great huh? Joe Johnson or Steve Nash? Joe Johnson. I mean, yeah, but that don't okay. He's winning them basically, so we don't, so we're not gonna we're not gonna put a whole bunch of weight on what he's saying.
SPEAKER_02:I mean because if you look at because you look at the year that he won't be like, I'm not saying he don't say all be all, but okay.
SPEAKER_01:But I'm just saying, if you're looking at the year that he won it over Kobe, if you go to those same Lakers players, you'll be saying the same, they be saying the same thing. We won't win this without Kobe, yeah. But obviously the the writer's over LeBron, you definitely gonna hear that. Writers, the writers agree though, so I mean shit.
SPEAKER_03:So for him to say that and the the the actual writers amongst the country said it, like I mean it holds a little bit of a way. I'm just saying that anybody can cape for they cape cape for their their their their teammate, but if the writers said and then he says, nah, yeah, y'all, nah, y'all tripping, nah, he really was because without him, we will we yeah, we we wouldn't shit.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, and I and and and if that's and if that's the on if that's the argument you getting, I'm guarantee you if you go to those those players that he beat out, that their their team is saying the same thing because those teams are in the same predicament with Kobe and LeBron.
SPEAKER_03:The only difference is that the writers, the voters didn't agree.
SPEAKER_01:The voters voted Steve Nash. So for somebody to back that up and say, that's the difference between somebody, um Rick Fox saying, oh nah, Kobe was the real MVP.
SPEAKER_03:Without him, we know we wouldn't have done anything. All right, cool. But the voters actually said, you know what, nah, Steve Nash is it the MVP, and his teammates said, nah, like real shit.
SPEAKER_01:Like he he nah, he earned it. So that's that's the difference between. But as but as a but as a as basketball players who watch those seasons, I'm basketball uh fans who watch this those seasons. I'm going in that moment, everybody was saying that. I'm going Kobe. But I'm just I'm just all I all I was doing was just stating facts.
SPEAKER_03:And all I'm saying is this, old is voted for Steve Nash, and I just quoted something that his teammate said.
SPEAKER_01:That's all that I mean, take do what you want with that information, but even before Joe Johnson said that I said even before Joe Johnson said that, from them points on, especially him winning it back to back, from the from them moments on, everybody was saying the same thing. I agree. I'm still saying the same thing. So you're not lying, you're factual in that. I'm still saying that. So I'm still so even with you're still looking at the majority of the people saying, nah. Nah, I watched that season. I was playing in that season. Nah.
SPEAKER_03:I'm just stating the facts, bro. The facts are he won it, and one of his teammates was like, hey, nah, for real, real shit. Because he was talking about it. He was he was talking to 520, and 520 was like, nah, you know, that was uh, you know, that should have been Kobe's, you know, but he was just like, nah, we wasn't, we, nah. He's like, you should have watched the games where he didn't play. Like, we, yeah, he really was that.
SPEAKER_01:So that that I mean, I don't even necessarily say I agree with it, but that's those are the facts. I mean, shit. I still rollin' with Kobe, but and like I like I said, we can go through MVPs or you can some seasoned MVPs, or you'll be like, hmm.
SPEAKER_03:You ain't gonna find no fucking Draymonds or OG Ananobis or all these other first team all defensive guys. You ain't gonna find no fucking Tony Allen's uh with MVP winners, bro.
SPEAKER_01:Or first team all. No, I'm talking about I'm talking about I'm talking about finals MVP. I'm just saying, just like you were discredited. Andrew is one of them guys that's a guy, but he won finals MVP. Okay, but if you and I'll guarantee, like you said, and and we're gonna say, and I'm saying Steve Nash is one of them guys that shouldn't have won, that won two season MVPs that shouldn't have won it. By consensus, by everybody outside of his, probably outside of his team and the writers in that moment. Consensus said Steve Nash won it.
SPEAKER_03:So like you're arguing with I'm not here to to argue to debate facts. We can be subjective all day, like, and I think that's the basis of this conversation, but the facts you're quoting.
SPEAKER_01:You can't use your subjective opinion in a in a in a in a debate about facts. The facts is the facts are rather winning. Okay, so to you, a seasoned MVP is more than a finals MVP. Absolutely. To me, it's not because you can't you you can get a you can get a seasoned MVP without making it to the finals. You can't get a finals MVP without making it to the finals. Just by making it through the season, you can't get a finals MVP. So I'm putting more weight on that because D-Way has been to the finals and he won a championship. He won't be. Every guy in the NBA has a shot as a season MVP. Only guys in the NBA. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. Yes, that's one, okay. Yes. At the beginning of the season, everybody in the NBA has a shot at the season MVP. Game one, everybody has a shot. Everybody doesn't have a shot at the finals MVP. Only people who make it to the playoffs have a shot at the finals. Realistically, maybe what, two or three people out of the series have been. I mean, actually, that doesn't even, that don't even apply. Because only the people who make it to the finals have a shot at a finals MVP. Yeah. So I can say that D-Wade's finals MVP holds more weight to D-Way, I mean, than James Harden's because there's only 26 people who had a shot at a finals MVP that time. Right. So one out of 26 is is harder than one out of 300? Yeah. It's more crazy. How is one out of 26 harder than one out of 300 something? What's the the the odds of you winning are way better one out of 26 than one out of 340 or however many guys it's in the game? You're you're you're you're almost you're almost doing it backwards because if you don't make it to you, that's right. One out of 26, one out of 26 is way better odds. If I shoot 26 threes and I only hit one, that's that's a lot easier or a lot better than one out of 340. You're but you're not doing the math right. No, I couldn't do the math. No, no, hear me, hear me, hear me, hear me. This like I'm saying major, bro. Like the odds of winning the in-season MVP are way harder. Like one out of three. One, if I say you gotta win.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, then find out.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, hold on, real quick. You just gotta break it down into starters. You gotta break it down into starters. Okay, we can we can really narrow this down. You can break this into down into starters. You're cooking yourself over 30 over 30 teams. Go ahead. You're cooking yourself. We'll cut that, we'll we'll cut those odds down. We can really cut those odds down. Bro, if I if I if I give if I say, hey Vernon, the chance of you winning this$300 is one out of 340 or 1 out of 26. Which one are you going with? Which one has the greater chance of you winning? One in 26. Exactly, bro. That's the greater chance. That's the easier, that's the better odds, bro. Okay, but at the end of it. Okay, then. So at the beginning of the season, who all has a chance at a finals MVP? Everybody. Okay, then. So the same odds. No matter how crazy you kill, if your team doesn't make it to the finals, you have zero percent chance of winning the finals MVP. No matter if you could be averaging 50 points a game. Okay, then make it to the finals. Guess what? James, okay, then cool. You just made my point. James Harden has had a zero percent chance of getting a finals MVP. D Way is D Way, D Way has had a no. See, there you go. There you go. There you go. That's not a team. That's not a team award. It's team. But you have a team of award. A check is bro. If your team doesn't get there, you can't win, bro. How are you gonna win an MVP, a finals MVP, if your team doesn't make it to the finals? It doesn't make it. It makes it even more elite. That's what I'm saying. James Harden hasn't had a chance. He's had a zero percent chance. Because he's never made it, bro. His team and he carries them throughout the first season. You're okay on team of okay. So he's had a zero percent chance. I get that, bro. And D Wade going to what multiple finals has had multiple chances. So, okay, so Draymond. So that makes him more. Draymond Green has had six chances at an MVP. Yes, he has. Vince Carter's had what, two? Does that make him better? Because he's had more opportunities? Or is it just a none to some type of thing? Because I can definitely think of some all-time great setup. But but but you but if you look at Vince Carter, he's had eight, he's had chances. I'm saying James Harden has had one. So it's talking about zero. So so we need to pull up a um a list of the best NBA players uh that haven't won that haven't been to a finals, and Draymond Glear, Draymond Green just clears them all, right?
SPEAKER_03:Is that what you're saying? Before I look it up, is that what do we agree on that?
SPEAKER_01:What do you mean? You're talking if we're talking about if we're talking about chances at a finals MVP. I did it. Draymond Green has been to what six finals and has won four? So he's had four opportunities at winning, or just six, however you want to calculate it. Yes, and if you compare him, and if you compare him to another great that has zero chance at a finals MVP, Draymond Green as a better player. Yes, well, if it comes to chance if it if it if it comes to chances at a finals MVP, he does because they haven't had a chance. Okay. Give me one zero one percent beats zero percent. Every time he writes Okay, come on. So Derek Fisher clears uh Derek Fisher clears. Derek Fisher's had a chance. James Mars. So, so, so, so he had a chance. Are you saying these guys are better players? No, what did I what did we see? Don't change it. I'm not changing it. Okay, so what are you talking about? Chances at finals, chances at finals MVPs. You just say that a person has if a person has a chance at an NBA Finals, they're automatically better than somebody who hasn't. I didn't see that's not what I said. That's not what I said. If we're talking about chances, I'm talking about chances at finals MVPs. I get that. But you're saying Okay, that's it. That's it.
SPEAKER_03:So you're saying that D Wade clears James Harden because D. Wade has had chances and James Harden hasn't, right? That's it.
SPEAKER_01:So finals MVP has. So you gotta apply that same criteria to any two players, right? Right. Okay. So there's the players, wait a minute. The players that you just because listen, you have to compare players who have been and haven't. And we're talking about only chances at a finals MVP. That's it. I get this now. Okay, so there's government, so so, but you but agree or disagree that you're saying that Jane that D Way clears James Harden because James Harden hasn't had a chance to win a uh finals MVP and Dwayne Wade has. Yes or no? I'm saying no. That's not what I said. No, that's not what I said. No. Okay. Then what does that mean? Because I because what does that mean? That's not what you're saying. Because we were just talking about MVPs. And you were saying that a seasoned MVP is more valuable than a finals MVP. I'm saying no, because everybody that starts an NBA season has a chance at a season's final uh seasons MVP. Only people who make it to the finals and win a finals has a chance at a finals MVP. And I'm saying, no, just let me put the same equation, and you're not rolling with me. What are the two players? I just named them. I said Derek Fisher and Steve Nash. Okay, Steve Nash, has he had a chance at a finals MVP? No. Okay, has Derek Fisher? Yes. So Derek Fisher has had a better chance at a finals MVP than Steve Nash. That's a percent. One percent to zero. That's all I was talking about. I don't know what you're going with that. That can't be what you're talking about because it makes no sense. It's irrelevant. It does when you're talking about D Wade and Jay Tarden. No, it does not. So how can it how can that be a fact or an equation for them two players, but it's not an equation for any other two players? I just said that Steve Natchez had a I just said Steve Nash had a zero percent chance at a finals MVP. A zero percent chance. And Jerry Fisher has neither has Steve Nash. So what does that mean? What are you talking about? Neither has Steve Nash. You cannot say that uh Steve uh the what the one. But you have to compare, but you have to compare somebody who's won one to somebody who hasn't. You're comparing two people who haven't won one. We're comparing somebody who has to somebody who hasn't. So Andre Iguidal over uh over Damian Lillard. Who's the better player? Damien, we're not talking about better player. We're talking about chance of that.
SPEAKER_03:We are talking about who's better between James Harden and Dwayne Wade. And we're breaking down their accomplishments, and you're trying to say that something.
SPEAKER_01:Let's break down their accomplishments. James Jones has had opportunities to win finals VP. What does that mean? Okay, so what I'm saying is Slava Babadinko has had a chance to win a finals MVP. Who the fuck cares? If we're talking about final, if we're talking about fine, if we're talking about MVPs, which we were originally, season MVP versus final MVP. That's what we originally was talking about. Yes with James Harden and D Wade. I'm saying again, well, what I've been saying is that at the beginning of a season, everybody has a chance to get a season MVP. That's That's what I said. And I'm saying this. And I'm saying, and I'm saying, I'm saying that not this everybody who starts off a season has a chance at a finals MVP. You have to get to the finals. Everybody don't get to the finals. Everybody doesn't get to the finals. I get that. To have a chance at a finals MVP. So that's what I'm saying. So if we're talking about those two awards, which we originally was, I'm saying that I take a finals MVP over a seasoned MVP because you don't have the same chances to get one. You have to be in that game to get one. And James Harden, and I'm saying James Harden has never been in that game. Let me respond. Let me respond. That's your prerogative if that's how you feel. But if you're gonna if you're gonna state that, it has to be the same unilaterally for everybody. Or so real. But I'm not saying they're better. I'm talking about those two awards. It don't it don't matter. Okay. It literally doesn't matter. If you can't if anybody else, like if you're if you're gonna bring up if you're gonna bring up two players, bring up the same criteria. You can even I can even add players that did have a chance to win an NBA finals MVP and didn't. It still don't allow. And I'm gonna say the same thing. Long as it's long as Andre Eagle Dallin and James Harden. Okay, I'm gonna say the same thing. That you're James Harden has had a zero percent chance to win a finals MVP, and Eagle Dollar has had the same chance. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything. What does that mean? Chances. That's what it means. It don't matter. I don't care. I don't do the lottery. I don't do the lottery, so I have zero chance of winning it. What the fuck does that mean in the grand scheme of anything? Like, you don't that'll make you a better chance because you do have a chance of winning the lottery, and I don't, that don't make you a better that don't make you better anything. A better person if anything, it made like it doesn't make you anything better. Like nothing. So again, if we're talking about basketball and we're talking about accomplishments, that's my outlook on those two. I and I can even as far as those two, I can even match you more. I can say a guy that did have a chance at winning the MVP, uh, a finals MVP, Allen Iverson. I'm still still clearing um goddamn Andre Guadala. So like if you're not talking about accomplishments and you're just talking about basketball players, then fine. But we're talking about it. He got a regular season MVP. It's just oh the Okay, but if we're talking about the theory, but the theory. If you change the criteria, then yes. If you're just talking about players that if you're talking about players that's better than than each other, then yes. But if we're talking about the accomplishment of season MVP and finals MVP, which we originally was, then that's my conf, that's my argument on that. And I'm just saying that it's weak, it has helly holes, and I've exploited all of them.
SPEAKER_03:In the best way that I know. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Because my computer's getting ready to die. So if it just cuts out, I ain't hanging up. It's just I ain't got my cord down, I'm I'm down bad. But my only thing I say is you cannot use a strategy if what what they say in math, it's not a real equation if it if it doesn't work for all real numbers. And your your your your theory has holes in it, and I've exploited those. I've exploited those.
SPEAKER_01:But what but plugging two players with the same situations and it doesn't equate to anything, bro. It doesn't, but but that but you're you're making it seem like I'm changing my answer based on that. And I'm just you're just refusing to, and that's fine. But that's that's just like us being in court and you saying I didn't do it, but I lay out all this evidence and you're just like I didn't do it, so I'm not changing what I'm it don't matter if you can say that the same thing. I've literally exploded your theory, and you're just like, Oh, I'm not changing. But how do you explore Okay, okay then, okay then, okay then. If you're exploring my theory, my my theory is that zero chances. Okay, has James Harden okay then if you're exploring my theory, has James Harden been to a finals? No, okay then, you're not exploring my theory. That is my theory. What I'm saying is that doesn't say shit about how uh MVP, how how a um how the finals MVP that doesn't say anything about having how having a chance at winning the finals MVP is greater than an in-season MVP because I've given you multiple scenarios where there's guys who have won uh MVPs that don't mean shit to guys that have won regular season MVPs. They don't can't even hold their draws. So that's how I've exploited that you're but that's not but but that's that's not that's not my theory though. Just like we're in court and you're just like, oh well I didn't do it. I have the evidence. Like that's not my laid out scenarios that you lay it out, but you laid out scenarios, but you laid out you didn't lay out scenarios based on my theory. Did that do they or do they not fit your what what you're trying to like point out? No.
SPEAKER_03:No, hold on. Let me say this. My computer is getting ready to go.
SPEAKER_01:You're saying yes or no, you're saying that having a chance at winning a finals MVP in some sort is greater than having a chance at winning uh uh a regular season MVP. I'm saying the chances are not the same. I get that. But the chance that's all I'm saying. But that's not facts either. That is facts. One out of 400 is better odds than one out of 26, Vernon. But I'm listening no, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying I'm trying to figure out what's the best chances I have to win. I'm gonna pick one out of 26 over one out of 400 because it's between. No, no, but what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is James Harden doesn't have the 26. He doesn't even get that option because he's never been there. That's what you're missing. And I just and I just laid down some greats that also haven't been there. That doesn't mean I'm not saying they're not great, I'm just saying they're chances at winning the finals. Slava Mavidenko has had a chance at winning uh uh uh NBA Finals MVP, and he's also had a chance to win a with anything, it literally has nothing to do with anything. Yeah, because you've lost the because you've lost because you've lost the context of what we were originally. I'm literally using your same formula, and you're just refusing to accept it. I didn't use a formula, having a chance at winning a uh uh uh a finals MVP means nothing, and I and my proof to that is naming all the guys that had a chance at winning it that are absolute shit dog basketball players. So but are we but we're not talking about we're not talking about shit dog basketball players because Dwayne Wayne, a shit dog basketball player? I didn't say that, but you're saying that you're trying to. So you're not comparing Apple to Apple. You're argumenting. You're comparing an apple, you're comparing an apple to a spoiled apple. Argument for him being having a more important accomplishment over James Harden is saying that he has and has won. He's had a chance at winning. We're talking about two won one. We're talking about two great players. So we're talking about two great players. Yeah, we're talking about two great players. So the greatest outweighs James Harden's two great players. Do you consider Eagle Isle Dollar a great player? Apparently, you do if you're you're putting it in. I said, No, I'm not saying apparently. Okay, then that's not the same comparison. Compare two great players. Compare two great players. I'm using objectiveness. You're using No, we're not using it. You said you can't use that as a fact. You just told me I can't use objectiveness as a fact. We're not talking about facts, we're talking about factual two great players. That's why I use Andrea Quidala, because we're talking about facts. Okay, give me two great players then. Give me two great players. Give me two great players in the same scenario. Alan Iverson and and D Wade. You said again, I'm still going D Wade accomplished. It's the same thing. I'm not changing that. AI that's that's where the conversation is. You know what? No, no, no. No, AI has not accepted it. I put AI over James Harden because he has had a chance. I take that back. I forgot. AI has been to the finals. He has had a chance. Louis Lava Mevidenko. Okay, he's won the final against who you imp you take. Is he great? Is he great? No, you consider him great? Okay, then so we're not talking the same thing. I need two great players. Me, but me considering somebody's great is subjectiveness. Okay, but subjective. Objectively speaking, okay, objective. And and Damian Lillard has never had a chance. What does that mean? It means absolutely but but if you're great or not, it's subjective. What's the what's the what's the guideline? But we both but we but the guideline, the guidelines for great is that we both agree that they're great. But the but the guidelines for that is we both agree that they're great. But we can't have the conversation. So we both agree that James Harden and D Wade are great, right? I also think that I also think that Damian Lewis. Wait a minute. I don't think that's you have to put him up against another great for us to have the conversation. That's what I'm saying. You can't change it. But you're that's it again, but you're not talking, you keep saying that you're not talking about who's a better player. We're just talking about No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying they're both great players. Why are you talking about who's great and who's not? You kept saying that we're not talking about it, we're not saying who's better who's better. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, no, no, no, no, no. Because you're you're because again, you're changing it again. If we're we're not saying we're not we're not saying who's better right here. I'm saying Dwayne and Harden are both great. I'm saying they're both great, but you're saying if you're saying you're giving me the same scenario and it's the same thing. I'm saying no, because there have to be two great players. But you're the scenario. But you're saying it doesn't matter who who's better. Not who's better, who's great? Somebody's great. Is there multiple great players? Not me. Is there multiple great players? Yes. Or there are multiple great players that have never made the finals. Yes. Yeah, okay. Okay then. So it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you give you if you give me D Wade and Charles, if you give me D Wade and Charles Barkley, I'm gonna say, okay, Charles Barkley, again, he's he's had a chance because he's been to a finals. Okay. If you say him and AI, okay, they both have a season, they both have a season. They both have a season, they both have a season MVP. They both have a scoring championship. You haven't acknowledged, so you pick two guys. You for two great guys that haven't that haven't won and shit. You do it. Like everyone. I just think my argument doesn't change. I've named a bunch of good guys that you haven't gained two great guys, but you haven't gained two. But okay, but you didn't put him up another against another top 75. You can put him up against D Wade, you do it. Put him up against D. Way. Same thing. D Wade's accomplishment. Wait a minute. Damian Lillard has a final season. He doesn't, but pick one. It's not the same conversation. Pick one. Pick one, bro. You could you could you could put Russ in there. I'm gonna say the same thing. He's had a zero chance. But that doesn't I'm gonna say the same thing. And there's a lot of guys that have had zero chances, bro. And that's all I've been saying. But what does that matter? Because the chances to the chances to get a finals MVP and the chances to get a season MVP are not the same. That's all I've been saying. Is that a fact? The odds are worse than it is to get a finals, bro. Like this, it's just literal math. I went to school for this. Like it's literal math, bro. It's not a zip. So okay, okay, okay, then wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay, okay, then. Okay, I'm gonna say that. Okay, you said okay, you already laid that out. Okay, cool. So wait a minute.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So if you have so so the chances of winning a season MVP. Yes. Okay, just just let me finish. Yes. The chances of winning a season MVP. Yes. We agree. At the beginning of the season, everybody has that same chance. Yes. Okay, but in order to get a finals MVP, not only do you have to make the playoffs, you have to make it to the finals. Right? Okay, then. So if somebody starts the season off, they have the same chances to get a season MVP. But just because they start, they they make it to the playoffs, do they still have the same chance to get a finals MVP? No. No, they don't. One out of two. So that's just stop, just stop, just stop, just stop, just please, just please, just hear me. Just hear me. Just hear me. Just hear me. So what I'm saying is the chances are not the same. Because you get oh my god. They're worse. You're right. One in 400 and one in 26 are different, bro. They are okay. They're very much so different. I'm not it's not one in 26 if you don't make it. That's what you're not getting. And he hasn't made it. So that's my point. The zero. The chances are zero.
SPEAKER_00:The facts are zero. James Harden is zero. He doesn't have a chance because he's never been there. Zero. So D Way's chances at a season of VP is higher than James Harden's because James Harden has never been to the finals.
SPEAKER_01:Zero. That's math. Is that a fact?
SPEAKER_03:That is that is blasphemy, bro. Is it? You're a leader. You're tweaking right now, bro. How? Because I've literally brought up.
SPEAKER_01:Who didn't have a chance, but you're not applying that same logic.
SPEAKER_00:Because you're not comparing to the same people.
SPEAKER_01:Are you saying that? You're saying that since a guy has a chance, he's better than a guy who hasn't had a chance. That's the only thing that's the same thing. I'm saying when you're when you're comparing the accomplishment, because you can't, you don't okay. Talk about the accomplishment. So, yes, if we're talking about the accomplishments, the season MVP and the finals MVP, if a guy has a chance to win, if if one guy has a chance to win both accomplishments, and one guy only has a chance to win one accomplishment, that's simple, man. That doesn't mean anything. Literally, that doesn't mean anything. You're still trying to say win something that you've never had a chance to win. You're still trying to say one in 26. I've had a listen, I've had a chance to win what you won. You haven't had a chance to win what I won. We're either. Apply it. What you just said, I had a chance to win you didn't apply. You have to apply it to any players for it to make sense. Because you gotta put the same players together. No, you that's that's where you're entering. You have to compare somebody who has an MVP against somebody who don't have an MVP that has a finals MVP. Okay. Uh Chris, um, not Chris Posn want an MVP. I mean, you can enter you can literally enter anybody. Everybody that you're naming, you keep saying no. But you but they also that person also that you put in there has to never been to a finals. The criteria has to be the same, and you're not doing it. So so okay, so Dwayne Wade don't have a regular season MVP, so you can't even he he he don't have a regular. But he's had a fan. He can't have so he can't be in the equation either, then. If I gotta put somebody in it on my side that has a regular season MVP, he don't have one, so he can't even be in the conversation himself. Okay, but then that other person, okay. But wait a minute, but whoever you put in there has to have a finals MVP. So cool. Go ahead, swap it out. Why does why does that don't make sense? Because that's what we're talking about. Why does it make sense? Why does one guy talk about why does one guy have to have one? But then the my guy has to have two stipulations. No, your guy don't have to have two. Yeah, you literally have seen. I just think that the I said finals and had a uh season MVP. That's two stipulations. Because no, I'm saying two stipulations, yes or no? Okay, I'm but that's the opposite. That's two stipulations. But I'm just sorry that my bad to be way, my bad to Jay Gardner's never been through the finals. So if I gotta have a guy that has a regular season MVP and has not made a finals, your guy just only has to have made up finals. No, because my guy's made it through the season. He's had a chance at a season MVP. But the chances there. We're talking about we've been talking about chances. You've been talking about math. We've been talking about chances. That's the whole thing we've been talking about. You're talking about chances, and I've entered the same logic. Drake has had a chance within uh NBA finals MVP, but he hasn't. What does that mean? Okay.
SPEAKER_00:But have they chances are crazy?
SPEAKER_01:But they have to have been there. I had a chance to take a shit today. I didn't yet. What the fuck does that mean? Just because you've taken a shit and you've had the best shit of your life, that don't mean that you're better than that means nothing. It don't mean that you're better than me. It doesn't mean that your bowels work better. It doesn't mean that uh you you you you're more sensitive to shit. It means nothing. But if we're but if we're if we're but if we're comparing shit, then that's what we're talking about. We're talking about two different shits or whatever stipulation we're putting on the screen.
SPEAKER_06:Like we're talking about MVPs.
SPEAKER_01:Like we're talking about MVPs. But we're talking about MVPs. If I have a uh a seasoned best shit, it then okay. This is getting crazy. It is. You you went, you took it there. I've been keeping in on MVP. You still made a point, but you you found a way to refute it. But it's it's I mean, it's it's okay. It's MVPs. Literally, I've never said, Oh, I'm not changing my you said that. So it's you're you're being impossible to talk to. I've never said, Oh, I'm not changing. I'm literally just arguing my point. You said, Oh, I'm not changing. I'm arguing my point. You can't change remedy. You literally said, you literally refuse to change.
SPEAKER_00:You can't change my point, but you can't change, you can't change that's you can't, bro.
SPEAKER_03:Then we're but you can't change talking, we're talking for nothing then. If you can't change my point, but you can't change my point. And what are we talking about? We could have ended this an hour ago. If you were gonna say that you refuse to change your opinion, that's fine.
SPEAKER_01:There's nothing that I can say to make any sense to you, which I've laid out multiple different scenarios, and you've refuted them all. So, like them all, you're a scenario, but you haven't refuted anything, but the but the but the situation has to be equal. You can chat we can change everything that we want to change, but if it's not equal, then it's not my argument. It's not, I mean, it's not equal. Well, then D Wade never won a season MVP, so it's not equal. We can't we can't even compare apples to oranges because or apples to apples because he ain't won no season MVP. So, like cool, but if we're talking about chances, which we were, and he's had a chance and he didn't get it. Okay, and I'm saying I'd rather be 0 for 0 than 0 for 1. And I wouldn't for O is better than 0 for 1.
SPEAKER_03:If I play the lottery every day of my life and never win, who lost more money than somebody who's never played it and never won? I'm in the better scenario, nigga.
SPEAKER_01:If I've never played and never won and you play every day and you've never won, I'd rather have no chances and not not having, I'd rather have rather have no chance to win it and not not have won it than to have multiple chances to win it and not won it. Okay, then but what about the people who've had uh a chance and won it? That's fine and dandy, but that doesn't make you better. That doesn't make you better because I'm gonna just go again, I'm gonna go back to Andre fucking Iguadala. That's a person who had a chance, won it, doesn't mean fucking shit. He's still not the cream of the again, again, D Wade won it, and he's still and if you and if and if again, if you get a seasoned MVP who's never made it to the finals and you want to put them up against Andre Equadala, that's that's that's that's equal because D-Way ain't won a regular season MVP. So if I gotta have criteria, your guy gotta have a criteria as well.
SPEAKER_03:And you wanna you wanna zero out of zero, zero out of zero is better than zero out of one. I ain't lose nothing. Just because my team never made it to the finals, I ain't lose nothing. That ain't no knock on me.
SPEAKER_01:That ain't no knock on me, but you but your guys had so now you're so now you're flipping and saying that somebody who who has chances at both at both criteria is worse than the person who only had a shot at one. Yes, and I can get your names. Slava Mevadinko. Yes, that's worth like everything about his career is worse. And he's had what three or three at least three chances, two or three chances to win finals MVP. So that's exactly what I'm saying. Okay, and then so some so somebody who's equivalent to to Mevadinko you're entering subjectiveness. I'm speaking on facts, you're speaking on what you think and how you feel, but not a matter of but you but we're comfortable. So we're just so seasoned MVP, so season MVP doesn't come into it at all. Say what now? So the season MVP doesn't come into it at all. Not if you're bringing up finals MVP. Oh, he had a chance. Who gives a fuck? Like, that means nothing. Isn't that the lot of guys who had a chance that aren't shit? So, like, yes, the wait a minute, wait a minute. Later, hey, this is my final my final comment. The chance at winning uh NBA finals means nothing to me because there's guys that had that same opportunity that didn't win shit. It ain't shit.
SPEAKER_03:Their whole careers are not shit and had multiple times to win finals MVP.
SPEAKER_01:So that's why I'm down playing uh uh a season MVP uh finals MVP. But a seasoned MVP, everybody's had a chance to win it. Only only the cream of the crop have won it, and it is what it is. Take it or leave it.
SPEAKER_03:There's more there's more top 75 guys that won finals MVPs than top 75 guys that won finals MVP.
SPEAKER_01:You just said finals MVP first. That could not be right, but in my recent memory, I can name a few. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm gonna stop you because you just said something, and I want to make sure that you, I'm gonna let you correct yourself because you just said there's more top 75 guys that won finals MVPs than one season MVP. So I'm gonna let you switch that. No, I said season MVPs. I'm gonna get that.
SPEAKER_03:I can retract that. Jared, you're wrong. I'll take that. I I could not even I could but I know that there's many more guys that won finals MVPs, I mean that won season MVPs that had chances of winning, like that, that are actually great, all-time great players, which is that's my subjective is what I'm trying to avoid. I'm trying to stay strictly objective, but just forcing subjectiveness on the conversation, bro. There's more, like there's a I can name a million guys that have had chances to win finals MVPs that are absolute dog shit.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And then you gotta think now. The pool is even bigger on season MVPs, people who didn't win it who are absolute dog shit. That's even bigger pool. That's even a bigger pool.
SPEAKER_03:One out of 400 a season is is terrible odds compared to one out of 26, bro. And I've said that an hour ago.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm saying I'm saying that you gotta have a chance. For your math to even count, you gotta have a chance. No, you don't. You do the math to count. Oh, great. I'm glad you said that. For the math to count towards what? For the math to count towards the conversation of MVPs, you have to chance that one. Nah, that ain't that ain't nah. One is more exclusive because everybody doesn't get a chance to get it. And I've and I've I continue to name people who had chances that aren't shit. So that literally. And I can name, and and and I can name, and I can name probably 80% of the NBA who who has a chance to get a season MVP that's absolute dog shit that don't get it. But this is your That's a way bigger pool. It's your scenario though, bro. Okay, and align with my scenario. Still harder. It's still the you have worse harder to get a finals MVP than it is. You your odds are worse at winning a regular season uh MVP than your odds are of winning a finals MVP. That's but you have but that but you only get again, your odds only come into play if you get to the finals, right? I get that. And that's and that's all I'm saying. That's all okay. If you get that, that's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Then one out of 26, bro. But all I'm saying is you have to get the odds, right? You have to get the odds, right? That's a fact, bro. Okay, cool. But for you to be but we can agree that this is. Okay, but in order to have the odds, you have to get the try to tell me that winning that your eyes. In order to have the odds are reverse, you have to have the odds. And when we're talking about James Harden, he has no odds, right? Okay, and I've I've Okay, cool. Cool, that's all I've been saying. I'm I'm cool. Long as we both agree that James Harden has had zero odds. Cool, I'll take your odds. Yes, you're right. One out of 20, one out of 40 is better than one out of 400. You guys have zero odds. Huh? You gotta take Sava Mevadinko's odds then. If you're gonna take it, and and just like I said, I'll take D Ways in both situations. All right, if you want to take uh, yeah, that's fine. I'll take a D-Ways because I'm talking about I'm talking about the original two people we've been talking about.
SPEAKER_03:I'm the same people. If you're taking the odds, that means you it's an easier chance you think it's gonna happen. You're gonna take one out of 26 over one out of 400. Gotcha. Right. Of course you have to take those odds because they're easier.
SPEAKER_01:But I can't apply that to James. But I can't apply that to James. Of course you're gonna take that. You're gonna take those odds because they're easier, bro. Of course. But I but but D what James Harden, but James Harden doesn't have that odds. Winning a finals MVP than they are winning the regulars easier. I agree, but James Harden doesn't have the odds.
SPEAKER_06:And I agree again.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, but again, wait a minute, wait a minute. But you've just now agreed, wait a minute. You've just now you've just now agreed that James Harden has had zero odds. That's all I wanted. So so you're saying this whole hour and a half. That's all I've been saying. You you mean to tell me that I've been saying that he has had a chance to win a finals MVP. No, that's just that. Um no, you've been arguing me about other people when we've been talking about James Harden and D-Wade. And I know that he hasn't had any he so you're telling me you're telling me that I've been saying you that James Harden has been no finals.
SPEAKER_03:Basically, it's what you're saying that I've been arguing.
SPEAKER_01:I've been trying to argue the point that he that that the the finals MVP is more exclusive because the stay with James Harden has not when he's talking about that. We've been arguing that James Harden has has has has had or has not had a chance. I've been trying to tell you that he hasn't even had a chance to get a chance. I know that he hasn't had a chance. Because you haven't, because you haven't know that he hasn't had a chance. You haven't because you haven't given me a chance to to to to tell you that. Bro, that you don't have to talk about the hardening has never been to a finals. Okay. So we're knowing that. Everybody knows that. Okay, so when you're talking about chances, when you're talking about odds, when you bring up odds, I'm saying that a zero, uh no odds at all. D-Way's odds is better on the season MVP side and the finals MVP side because he's had the odds to do both. I've been saying that James Harden, wait a minute, stop talking, bro. So has moments ever didn't. I'm saying, James, here we go. See, this this is what you do. I'm letting you let me talk. I let you talk. I hear you out. Hear me out. I am hearing you out. Okay, so James Harden has had a zero, zero odds. That's all I'm saying. It don't mean anything. Okay, if you're saying it don't mean anything. You're not 0 for! You're not even you don't have any. You don't, you ain't no chances is 0 for, bro. Okay, then if I don't have a chance at scoring the ball, that means I didn't shoot, Vernon. That's 0 for 1. Okay, so so I so wait a minute. So wait a minute. Okay, cool. So all I'm saying is the D-Wade has had a chance at both, and James Harden has not. Original conversation. And I'm saying that Slava Mevidenko has as well. But that's not that's not the conversation. It it fits your it literally all your statements. But it doesn't, but it doesn't fit the conversation.
SPEAKER_03:Bar for bar, you said.
SPEAKER_01:But it doesn't fit the conversation.
SPEAKER_03:Hold on, hold on, hold on.
SPEAKER_01:We're talking about James Harden.
SPEAKER_03:What you just said is We're talking about James Harden. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So if you Okay, we're talking about James Harden. So talk about James Harden. If your statement means talk about James Harden. Talk about James Harden. Talk about James Harden. Talk about James Harden. Talk about James Harden. Okay, then so if we agree, if we agree for D. Wade and James Harden. If we agree, if we agree as far as James Harden and D Wade, if we agree as far as James Harden and D. Wade, then we're good. Because that's what we've been talking about. That's all I've been talking about. I ain't brought up no other players. I've been talking about D. Wade and D Way. Okay, then so that's been that's been in the conversation then. Okay then. So we're talking about an hour and 30-minute conversation. Exactly. Because you kept bringing up other shit. You wouldn't stay on topic. Like I've been trying to keep you to do.
SPEAKER_03:That's what you're saying that we've been talking about for the last hour and a half.
SPEAKER_01:We've been talking about MVP. We've been talking about MVP. That's all we've been talking about. So between James Harden and D Wave, which one do we put more weight on?
SPEAKER_03:About whether or not James Harden has been to a finals.
SPEAKER_01:You can't believe that, bro.
SPEAKER_03:You're a smart guy. You're smart.
SPEAKER_01:We've been talking about what you think, bro. Have we not been talking about MVPs? Have we not been talking about MVP? Answer that question. Have we not been talking about MVPs? And I think that James. James Harden has been to a finals. You can't think that that's what I think. Why would you bring up odds then? You can't think that. You you then why would you bring up odds? Only brought up odds because you said the odds are better at winning a regular season than they are winning the finals. And I said that's not true. Okay, but if we're talking about James, James Harden and D. Wade, my comment is based on that. But you're that's all we've been talking about. I know, but who doesn't know that James Harden hasn't been to a finals? But if you would have been listening, if you could have been said that and we'd have been done. I didn't why do I have to say that James Harden ain't been we that's literally the whole conversation. You're right. That's been the whole conversation. If you're using that theory to mean anything, you have to I didn't mean I didn't say it meant anything. You're talking about these two players. So if you're saying that it don't mean anything, why are you saying it? You keep saying do you want to be winning in the world? Okay, what does that mean? Two players a million different players it doesn't mean anything. And it won't, and that's like saying that's like saying Jordan is better than LeBron because Jordan has six rings, LeBron has four, and and uh it's not the same, it's not the it's not the same conversation because we're talking about see you're changing the example, we're talking about MVPs. We're talking about MVP. That's what we're talking about. We've been talking about goalposts. If you can't make that same statement about any other two players, that's literally moving. But if you can't so you're trying to so you're trying to make a point, you're trying to make a point using two players, but can't use it about any that's moving the goalposts. That's like me saying, Oh, you beat them, you beat them by one point, we beat them by one point, or you beat them by three points, I beat them by one point, I'm better. My win means more because no nigga, that's literally moving the goalpost. Google moving the goalposts. You're literally this guy, this this situation makes sense because it's these two players. But you can't I can put in a million other different scenarios, and that whole logic means it sounds stupid. Bro, if you put up two any any other two players that are comparable to the to to this scenario, as far as NV, listen, as far as as far as MVPs, if you bring up, if you put up any other play, if you bring up any use uh Bill Russell, if you put up any other players, if you bring up any other players that are comparable to each other, that has this that has this same scenario. Oh my god. Yes, you're moving the goalposts, bro.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not because I never changed it.
SPEAKER_01:You keep bringing the goalposts.
SPEAKER_03:That's moving the goalposts, bro.
SPEAKER_01:Bro, if we were just broke, bro, if this whole conversation started off and we were just talking about random MVPs and final MVPs, and we were just talking random, then yeah, what you're saying all applies. But if we're talking about these two people, which we specifically brought up, these two people took a pair. If we're talking about these two, then that's it. We're talking about these two, and we're talking about their final MVP and a season MVP between these two players, then what I'm saying applies to this. I've never changed anything. You keep going up over and talking about this and talking about that. I'm talking about these two. It don't make sense. That's it do make sense when it comes to these two. It's just like saying Jordan's better than LeBron because he has six to four, but you're not saying Bill Russell's important. It's the same thing. It's not because the number are the numbers the same. You cannot bring up a theory. Are the numbers the same? Are the numbers the same? In any one, in any of those three, is it are the numbers the same? I'm talking about if you I'm talking about if we didn't pretend to already don't have the same exact numbers if we're comparing if we're comparing the accolades, they don't have the same exact numbers. So what are you talking about? Okay, we can't compare them either then. Okay, then so but if you bring up LeBron, okay. So LeBron don't have the same things that Jordan has. I'm bringing up other two players then. Okay, then you can't argue a point that can't be used for anybody else. And it can't have the same exact numbers. Cool, they gotta argue the same exact situation. Okay, cool, cool then, cool then. One gotta have more than the other. Cool. LeBron and Jordan. You want to talk about season MVPs and final MVPs? Cool, Jordan has more than both, so that doesn't apply. All right, well, then I guess he's better than your opinion, then. That's fine. Okay, then cool. When it comes to MVPs, yes, he's better. I can admit that I subjectively think that LeBron is better. LeBron has LeBron is a better basketball player, but if he is he better, but is he but is he better than MVP? LeBron has done it. Is he better? But is he better than MVPs? No, because that's what we're talking about. That's totally fine. But I can admit that's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. If you want to subjectively say that that's I'm not subjectively saying anything, I'm talking about I'm talking about MVPs. If you want to say we've been talking about specifically speaking, D1 is a better player than you than James Harden. And I'm not saying that. I'm just saying when it comes to MVPs and we're putting weight on MVPs. If I try to go in one different kind of curve, if you try to put in a stat to make Jordan uh LeBron better than Jordan, then I gotta use that shit for everybody, or it's not real. Absolutely, absolutely. I can't say LeBron is better than Jordan because he pisses with his right hand and Jordan pisses with his left hand.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely, and then you can say, well, this guy pisses with his left hand, this guy pisses his right hand, or does that make him better?
SPEAKER_01:That's exactly the situation I'm talking about. You can't just criteria that don't apply to everybody, bro. But you're talking about a situation that I'm not gonna do. Okay, cool. So if we're talking about MVP criteria, then yes, you can fly to anybody. Let's not it's not real. It's not it's not real. It's not it's not real. If it can't be applied, if it can't be applied unilaterally, it's not real. But it can though. It cannot. Because I keep putting up uh a similar situation and you're oh well they have to have the same exact you just put up the you just subjectively you subjectively have to be able to do that. You put up the Jordan LeBron. You put up the Jordan LeBron, and I'm and I'm saying when it comes to MVPs, LeBron Jordan is better. Okay, and when it comes to points, who else got who else got who else has both for one or the other? I'm admitting that it's subjective. You're trying to make a point, but that's trying to make a factual point out of D-Way being better than James Harden, and I've exploited it multiple times. You're not what I said. That's the that's the problem. I am listening. Because I'm saying when it when it comes when it comes to MVPs, and we're talking about the the the the the option, the the the criteria or the the the percentage, the chances, which we were talking about, then what I'm saying is D-Way is better because he's had a chance at something that James Harden has never had a chance at. That's all I'm saying. You can't say that he hasn't. That's a fact. That's a fact. That's a fact. He's never had a chance. Okay. That's a fact. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Does that make him better than James Harden? Who? It's a stupid, it's a stupid theory. Does Member does Member Dingo does Member Dingo have a finals MVP? It doesn't make sense. Does he have a finals MVP? Okay, Andre Equideman. We're not talking about that. Andre Equidavenis and uh James Harden don't. Okay, cool. That means anything. So again, with literally means nothing. So with so with that, when it comes to MVPs, yes, the finals MVP that Igodala has holds more weight than the season MVP that James Harden has. The same thing applies. You know that's bullshit. It's not when it comes to MVPs, it's not because MVPs are MVPs tell me that Andre Iguidala has a better career than James Harden. But see, you're saying something different. I didn't say that. You're lying to say MVPs. You're literally lying to yourself. Who cares? MVPs to MVPs all night. My whole theory is that it doesn't hold more weight because there's people that have it against people who don't, and the people who don't clear the niggas who have. That's been my butt. The MVP itself, the what I've been talking about. There's niggas every finals that completely clear niggas that have won finals MVPs. Yes. But I'm also not, but I'm but I've never but I've never said that. Yes. But I've never said that. I didn't say that you did. I'm just okay. So what are you arguing then? Now I gotta say what you said. What are you arguing? Your theory, bro. That's not my theory, though.
SPEAKER_00:That's not my theory.
SPEAKER_06:You're losing.
SPEAKER_01:My theory is that somebody who had a chance to win a finals MVP is better than somebody who's not who hasn't had a chance. Somebody had a chance of winning the MVP and James Harden haven't. And I'm saying, okay, that's all I'm saying. I'm gonna say I'm putting two other motherfuckers in that same equation. In that same equation, it's bullshit. That means it's not a real equation. It is a real equation. If somebody has had a chance at a finals MVP and somebody hasn't, that's it. No, it's not. That's a chance versus no chance. It's one chance versus zero. I didn't say they were better. I didn't say they were better. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about MVP. Do you think that D Way is better than James Harden? Yes or no? Do I believe he is? Yes. Yes. Okay. We're talking about who's better. I believe that's not what I've been. I haven't argued who's better. But that's subjective to me. We literally have been arguing this is the entire time. And I'm and I'm cool with it being subjective. But you're not going to be able to do that. But you're trying to say that D-Wade's final MVP is holds more weight than James Harden's uh uh finals MVP, which is your equation is not factual, is what I'm saying. That means nothing because I can put in any two players and I can throw that shit right completely out the ball. But the player, wait a minute, but the players that you put in there, I have to agree on one of them because I agree on one of them here. Don't matter. Can you agree on can you agree on Andre Iguadala? He won a finals in V. No, that's not one of my players. I get to pick my own player. You don't get to pick your equation. I pick D-Way. If your equation is facts, I could put anybody in it. You're saying one player is better than the other because one player has had a chance of winning the finals. I'm saying one player's MVP. I'm saying, no, I'm saying one player's MVP is better than the other. That's what I'm saying. Don't tell me what I'm saying. I'm saying that D-Way's MVP is better than uh than James Harden. But Andre Widallas isn't. But Andre Godales isn't. That's not my player.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god, bro.
SPEAKER_01:But that's your equation, though. Yes or no? My equation when it comes to D Wade and James Harden, two great players. So your equation changes based on who you're talking about, right? Because it's my player that I picked. Moving the goalposts. The equation changes based on who we're talking about moving the goalposts. But wait a minute. Do answers to equations change on based on the numbers? So they should be higher than this. Wait a minute, wait a minute. In math, wait a minute. In math, do wait a minute. In math, do equations change based on the variables? Not real equations? What? Google. Okay, okay, okay. Real equations get no, they don't change. So the don't change based on the variables. The answer don't change based on the variables. The answer changes, but the equation. This plus this equals this. Right.
SPEAKER_03:I can't say you can't say, oh, that's a real equation, but then I can say, well, it's not an equation. This always equals five if I put in seven plus five. That don't equal five. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But the but the equation's MVP is better than uh than James Harden's. James Harden is fucking yes. James, yes, Dwayne MVP, James Harden EVP, Dwayne Wade greater. So I should be able to put it in the middle of the day. Dwayne Wade's finals MVP celebration Andre Equidala's MVP, James Harden's MVP. Does that make Andre Egodala? If it's not, then it's not a real equation. I'm saying wait a minute. Stop. Just stop. I'm saying that Igual Dollars Finals MVP is still greater than James Harden's season MVP. I'm still saying that. You just switched that a billion times. That's the way you feel. You're literally refusing anything. I'm talking about MVPs. You're refusing anything. You're refusing anything. We're talking about MVPs.
SPEAKER_00:Now we're talking about what player is better than.
SPEAKER_01:I just asked you that 10 minutes ago and you. That's not my player. That's not my player. You're not my player. You just lose the dollar out there. You didn't even answer the question, but now you're so you're so uh uh um stubborn that you're that you're willing to accept that madness now because I've been talking MVPs, period. You're better than this, bro. I know I am. That's why I'm saying I'm just talking MVPs. You like you could go off the rails and talk about whatever you want. But if we're talking about a finals MVP, if we're talking about if we're talking about Disney Play. You know that that's not all I'm saying. You know that's all I'm saying. The finals MVP is better than a seasonal MVP. I know that you know that you don't believe you playing. A finals MVP is better than a season MVP. Okay. Somebody's never had a chance. If somebody's never had a chance to get a finals MVP and they have a seasons MVP, if you put somebody who's have a finals MVP versus somebody who's never had a chance to get a finals MVP, but they have a seasons MVP, yes, that finals MVP is better than that seasons MVP. That will never change. I'm saying that, Verbeta, and I'm glad you're not talking so you can hear me. That's it. Okay, so that's all I'm saying. And I don't care what players you think.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god, bro.
SPEAKER_01:That's all I've been talking about.
SPEAKER_03:No, you haven't, bro. That's it. Okay, then okay. Now you're just like, oh, okay, I've I've dug myself so big of a hole that Andre Ibadala's MVP is more impressive than James Harden. When this nigga averaged like 30 fucking six points.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And this nigga Andre Iguidala got cooked by LeBron, but just won it because he kept him the 30 points instead of 35 points. The MVP, the MVP. That's bullshit, bro. Hey, nothing about the MVP. Cool. If you want to compare the players, fine. I'm comparing the MVP. And you know that shit, bro. I'm comparing the MVPs. You're literally just refusing. I'm comparing the MVP. Okay. You know the M. And I put it like this. I put it like this. I I'll change I'll even change the player. I'll change the player. Andre Iquadala. I'll pick another player. Listen, I'll pick another player. I'll take Jalen Brown. I'll take Jalen Brown, who doesn't have a seasoned MVP, that has a finals MVP. That finals MVP holds more weight than James Harden's seasoned MVP. Still. Different player. You don't believe that. I do. So you gotta take them all. You gotta take them all or nothing. So I mean wait a minute. Okay, then got you, got you. I'll take all the people who's won a finals MVP that haven't won a seasoned MVP versus the people who haven't had a chance to win a finals MVP but has a seasoned MVP. I will take that 100%. Andre Iguidala over fucking James Harden. All right, bro. Like As far as MVPs. There's nothing else to talk about, bro. Cool. When we're talking about MVPs, you're right. There's nothing else to talk about. That's the most ridiculous shit I've ever heard. And you know it too, though, bro. No, no. You know it. I swear to God, all my life you know it. I'm very convicted. You know this conversation. I'm very, I am very convicted in it. That's why you gotta talk about who's better. Yeah, if you want to talk about who's better, yeah, cool. But if you want to talk about the MVP and the value of it and the chances, then you're not. We're not even talking about the same thing. If we're not talking about who's better, right, okay, good. If we're not talking about who's better, then fine. The finals MVP holds more weight than a season MVP, especially if you've never had a chance to even get a finals MVP. Yes.
unknown:Oh, God.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Because unlike a finals MVP, everybody gets a chance to get a season MVP. Everybody doesn't get a chance to get a finals MVP. Same thing I've been saying from the job.
SPEAKER_03:Five of the Dingles had one, multiple chances. So that just that makes it great. That's a great has he won one, though.
SPEAKER_01:Has he won one?
SPEAKER_03:Having a chance at winning.
SPEAKER_01:Bring up somebody who's won one.
SPEAKER_03:I keep Brent mentioning fucking.
SPEAKER_01:Eagle Dollar. And I just said, Eagle Dollars finals MVP holds more weight than James Harden's season MVP. Okay, so why isn't he why isn't he top 75 if it holds more weight? Because we're just talking, I'm talking about the MVP. I'm not talking about the I'm not talking about the players' performance. Okay, so I'm talking about players' performance. Oh, come out then. So it holds more weight in what aspect? As far as MVPs. How does it translate if it holds more weight? As far as MVPs. Nigga, what? How does it how does it translate if it if it holds more weight, it has to mean something. It has to translate somewhere. Right. And I'm saying it translates.
SPEAKER_03:I'm saying if it holds more weight, he should be top 75. If it holds more weight, then if it holds more weight, it has to be able to translate to something.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm saying it translates. I'm saying it holds more weight because you're comparing it to a person who's never had a chance. But who cares? In 17 seasons. That literally does not matter.
SPEAKER_03:Having a chance to win an NBA Finals MVP is 100% a team accomplishment. And I can back that by naming all the guys, the bottom of the barrel guys.
SPEAKER_01:But only one person gets it. But only one person gets it. But only one person gets it. It's not a team finals MVP. It's only one person who gets it. Talking about the chance. The chance is only there for team accomplishments. You can average. The chance is only there if you get there. If you don't make it to the finals, you don't have a chance. Okay, good. That's what I'm talking about. James Harden doesn't have a chance. Zero. Team accomplishment. You shot and missed. So I mean. But we in the finals, but we both have a we both have a chance, but we both have a chance versus the person versus the person who who has a season MVP, but sitting at home and there's zero chance. Me and you, me and you, me and you would have had more me and you would have had the same amount of chance in the finals MVP as James. It's hard to sit at the crib and he's better than niggas. Like I don't give a fuck. But he's at home. You can even I don't give a shit. But he's but he's at home watching the D Wade. But he's at home watching the D Wade get a finals MVP. I it doesn't matter. I'm and I guarantee you, I guarantee you, if you ask, if you ask anybody who had wait a minute, if you ask anybody who has a season MVP, would they change it for a finals MVP because you have to win a finals to get a finals MVP? They would change it. Because that means they also get a championship. They asked Cam Newton. They would change it.
SPEAKER_03:They asked Cam Newton and he said no. They said would he change would he change his season MVP for a Super Bowl, not even Super Bowl MVP, just even a Super Bowl, and he said no.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's who we going with. We're talking about Cam Newton? Because, yeah, because Joe Flynn. Nobody is gonna trade their career in.
SPEAKER_03:No guy that hasn't won a Super Bowl MVP is gonna trade their career in. No great player that is not gonna say, oh yeah, I'd rather not be a seasoned MVP and be Joe Flacco. James Hart is not gonna say, I'm gonna trade in my seasoned MVP and all my accolades to be fucking Andre Guadala. He's not gonna do that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, but I guarantee you, I guarantee you, I guarantee you a Payne Manning is not gonna trade in his Super Bowl MVP for uh Joe Flacco's uh season MVP. Joe Flacco has a season MVP? I mean, I'm or not Joe Flacco, but uh Cam Newton's season MVP. Because he has a season. Leither person probably won't switch both ways. But I guarantee you, to get a to get a to get a because this gives you you get something else with that. No, I'm just saying though, but you but you get but you get more than just the MVP if you get a finals MVP. With the season MVP, it's just a season MVP, that's it. You don't get anything else with that. But if you get it, if you get a final or a Super Bowl MVP, you also get another accolade with it. I'm definitely not trading in a seasoned MVP. And then and then look at the checkbooks.
SPEAKER_03:I bet the I bet the fuck them niggas ain't trading in no season MVP for no Super Bowl MVP, bro.
SPEAKER_01:It's not happening. There's too many situations where we can look at it and like, nah, I'm not trading in no season MVP to be Joe Flacco, bro. I'm not trading in no James Harden MVP to be fucking Andre Andre Godala. It's over with, bro. Nobody's doing that shit. Because see the season MVP but wait a minute. But if you compare it, Andre Guidala hasn't even reaped the benefits of winning that finals MVP. But if you compare it, but if you compare it to somebody who never been who's never been to a Super Bowl, that should translate to something. That ain't translating to a max contract for Andrew Dala. It's true. But can't but Cam Newton see the way a seasoned MVP doesn't. Listen, I'ma scratch, I'm gonna scratch your Cam Newton argument. BC Cam Newton has been to a Super Bowl. Okay. So you gotta you gotta ask somebody who has a season you gotta ask somebody who has a seasoned MVP who doesn't, who hasn't even been to the Super Bowl.
SPEAKER_02:So you say,